Originally Posted by Bonsai Experiment

Contrary to a million movies , there is no glory in War.

Eric Bogle puts it best:

And I can't help but wonder now William McBride
Do all those who lie here know why they died
Did you really believe them when they told you the cause
Did you really believe that this war would end wars
Well the suffering and the sorrow and the glory, the shame
The killing the dying, the dying, it was all done in vain
For Willie McBride, it all happened again
And again, and again and again and again.

Ah bugger it anyway- I noticed this thread and half-hoped Catalpa had attempted to slip in a Marian visitation amid the artillery but it seems this one is actually leaning towards historical virtue.

One truth in evidence though at Fredericksburg is that Irishmen fight best when fighting each other and that appears to be a historical fact on which we can all concur

Originally Posted by Portadown madman

Agree with much of that. The British had good relations with the Southern states during the Civil war. The main reason for this was down to cotton imports from the south . When the Northern states blockaded southern ports, this almost caused the British to enter the war . That's what I've read .

The southern part of America remained pro-British right up until the world wars of the 20th century. Probably still due to the influence of the southern English descended oligarchs.

And Scots Irish are still an important recruiting source for the US army

Originally Posted by owedtojoy

This is one of the "Lost Cause" myths. For example, Irish immigrants were under-represented in the Union Army, and many Irish (like TF Meagher) took the opportunity to demonstrate their loyalty to the Union.

I think there were more Germans than Irish in the Union army. Understandably they were highly prized as soildiers.

The draft was not at all popular among the irish and they rioted hard against the draft. IIRC it is depicted in the film, Gans of New York

Proving once again that the diaspora are more sensible politically than those at home And more apt to a suitable riot in a sound cause.

Originally Posted by Catalpast

The conduct of the Union Generals was like a precursor of WWI!

The War Between the States is often seen as a kind of precursor to WW1. During the Crimean War, fought shortly before between several empires, the British lost 2500 men. 56,000 died in three days at Gettysburg. 7000 were gunned down in 20 minutes at Shiloh. This was shocking to people at the time, if you look at the newspaper reports in Britain.

One problem was that, like WW1, the technology outpaced the tactics. Thats what led to bloody messes like Pickett's Charge and Marye's Heights.

Originally Posted by Portadown madman

half of the union army was made up of Immigrants, cannon fodder is a bit strong.

Melting Pot Soldiers: The Union's Ethnic Regiments North's Civil War: Amazon.co.uk: William Burton: Books

1,000,000 45.4 Native-born white Americans.
516,000 23.4 Germans; about 216,000 were born in Germany.
210,000 9.5 African American. Half were freedmen who lived in the North, and half were ex-slaves from the South. They served under white officers in more than 160 "colored" regiments and in Federal regiments organized as the United States Colored Troops
200,000 9.1 Irish.
90,000 4.1 Dutch.
50,000 2.3 Canadian.
50,000 2.3 Born in England.
40,000 1.8 French or French Canadian. About half were born in the United States of America, the other half in Quebec.
20,000 0.9 Scandinavian (Norwegian, Swedish, Finnish, and Danish).
7,000 Italian
7,000 Jewish
6,000 Mexican
5,000 Polish
4,000 Native Americans

They were cannon fodder, absolutely shameful.

Here we'll give you some bread if you run though fields under fire.

They had to be publicised (in a PR way) to counteract the NYC riots 7 months later in 1863 where many Irish rioters killed dozens of black citizens... just to prove how much we instinctively hate all oppression and injustice.

New York City draft riots - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

On the subject of Irish fighting in the American civil war,just came across this article.
Thought it was quite good,with the listing of those Irish men that received the medal of honour.

The 146 Irish Recipients of the Medal of Honor from the American Civil War | Irish in the American Civil War

Originally Posted by james toney

On the subject of Irish fighting in the American civil war,just came across this article.
Thought it was quite good,with the listing of those Irish men that received the medal of honour.

The most senior Irish officer who served in the Civil War is virtually unknown, yet he was one of the most effective generals on either side - Patrick Clebourne from Cork.