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  1. #771
    eoghanacht eoghanacht is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by CptSternn View Post
    Jon Stewart on the Daily Show put it best -

    The text just says Jesus said 'My Wife'.

    That was it. That doesn't prove anything, the other words were cut off. The rest of the sentence could be...

    My wife, if I ever find one, must like Thai food.

    Or

    My wife? No, I'm not married!
    Ah well if Jon Stewart says so.............
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  2. #772
    Nebuchadnezzar Nebuchadnezzar is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by EPluribusUnum View Post
    I rather doubt that. Try instead:

    Of all New Testament women, Phoebe might be the most hotly debated in terms of her role in the early church. She is described in Romans 16:1 as a diakonos, which is generally masked in English translations as “servant.” However, diakonos is the same word that Paul uses to describe his own ministry (1 Cor 3:5; 2 Cor. 3:6, 6:4, 11:23; Eph 3:7; Col 1:23, 25), but it is unlikely that this parallel could ever be gleaned from English translations alone.

    What is more is that the title of Phoebe as a diakonos accounts for the “first recorded ‘deacon’ in the history of Christianity.”


    And Phoebe was not only diakonos, she was also Paul's prostatis, or patron. For what that means:

    In surveying the semantic domain of prostatis in regard to church leadership positions, one can see that the semantic range of meanings for proistēmi differs from the rendering of prostatis in English translations in Rom 16:2. According to the Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, in surveying the eight occurrences of proistēmi (as noted above), the majority of these instances have the sense of “to lead.”[11] However, English translations do not take this factor into account in their rendering of Rom 16:2 or the fact that prostatis in its proper sense means “a woman set over others.”[12] Instead of seeing Phoebe in a leadership capacity, English translations account for Phoebe as a “helper” (ASV, NAS, NKJV), a “succourer” (KJV), a “great help” (NIV), or as “helpful” (NLT). The YLT, however, adhering to the most literal rendering of prostatis, renders this term as “leader.” Douglas Moo argues that if the cognate verb proistēmi is considered in determining the meaning for prostatis, Paul might be characterizing “Phoebe as a ‘leader’ of the church.”[13]

    For one more:

    prostatis (literally “to stand before or stand at the head of”)

    So, Phoebe, deacon and head of the church of God at Cenchreae.

    So the answer is that the reduced role is owing to the misogyny of some late arriving folks, as it were.

    The whole piece is here:

    SBL Publications

    Here's another piece on St. Phoebe of Cenchreae:

    Through the Dust: Phoebe of Cenchreae

    Note that Phoebe was also an ambassador or plenipotentiary as well:

    Cenchreae was the eastern seaport of the city of Corinth and a popular stop for people traveling from Syria or Asia Minor. A prominent member of the church at Cenchreae, Phoebe was Paul’s ambassador or minister plenipotentiary, bringing his letter to the church at Rome.

    So she was a remarkable woman.

    And, here, so one and all may know that it wasn't Origen who was the misogynist who reduced her role:

    Paul's Letter to the Romans - Colin G. Kruse - Google Books

    And read on for a few pages there. Note the part on page 556 that rather correctly remarks that if Phoebe was Paul's benefactor, then surely she was a woman of substantial means.

    And note this piece, for some more salient information:

    Abandon Image: Phoebe: A Deacon of The Early Church

    So Phoebe is traveling all the way from Corinth to Rome, as the crow flies, 616 miles (longer by ship). And as our gal there makes plain, she likely was instructed in the matter of explaining certain portions of the letter, should some in Rome have questions. So she was a somebody in the church.

    And if you read on past that first page in that above Google books linked piece, you should read more on the downgrading of Phoebe, specifically here, the statement by Ng that prostatis does not imply any legal meaning. As our gal here correctly notes, however:

    Prostatis is the feminine form of the Latin patronus, which means "one who is the legal representative of the foreigner." In Jewish communities it meant the legal representative or wealthy patron. Phoebe somehow was the legal protector of the Christians at Cenchrea. In the Old Testament this noun is used of officials in charge of the work of the King (1 Chron 29:6) and of chief officers “who ruled over the people” (2 Chron 8:10). In its verb form the word means “to be at the head of, to rule, to direct” and it is used of those who “rule” in the church (Romans 12:8, 1 Thess 5:12, 1 Tim 5:17).

    This about puts it best:

    Translators also the conveniently choose the word "servant" for diakonos instead of minister or deacon, but this is an inconsistent interpretative-choice based on the biased theological supposition that asserts a woman could not be an "official" deacon/minister, so Paul must have meant that Phoebe was an everyday servant with no leadership role in the church whatsoever. However, this is not how Paul used the word diakonos in his letters, nor does it fit the immediate context of his introduction of her. Paul, who had not yet been to Rome, vouches for Phoebe to verify her leadership role in the church, so the people will cooperate with her and join in on the mission she was on. Why would Paul entrust a "table waiter" to be his representative 800 miles away to a church he had never been to and give her the sole responsibility of delivering and explaining what would become scripture and ask the church in Rome to assist her in whatever work she was there to do? This is obviously missionary language and an official recommendation for Phoebe.


    And lucky for you and me and the rest, our gal provides some of the other usages of diakonos:

    Col. 1:23-25: "...Of this church I was made a minister (diakonos) to the stewardship from God bestowed on me for your benefit, that I might fully carry out the preaching of the word of God..."

    1 Cor. 3:5: "What then is Apollos? And what is Paul? Servants (diakonos) through whom you believed, even as the Lord gave opportunity to each one."

    Ephesians 3:7: "Whereof I was made a minister (diakonos), according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power."

    2 Corinthians 3:6: "Who also hath made us able ministers (diakonos) of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life."

    1 Thessalonions 3:2: "And sent Timotheus, our brother, and minister (diakonos) of God, and our fellowlabourer in the gospel of Christ, to establish you, and to comfort you concerning your faith..."


    Note that last, why I have it in bold. Why was Phoebe sent Rome? And sent Phoebe (in lieu of Timotheus), our sister (Paul says that, in lieu of brother, as Phoebe is female) and minister (diakonos)(Paul says that as well) and our fellowlabourer in the gospel of Christ to establish, and to comfort you concerning your faith...

    That's why Phoebe was sent to Rome. Same reason why Timothy was sent to Thessalonika. And why Paul asked the church of God at Rome to help Phoebe with her activities there (she wasn't there simply to deliver the letter, since if she was, no need for Paul to ask for their help with respect to Phoebe's other activities, since she wouldn't have had any). And for that other passage that our gal relates but I have not as yet:

    Ephesians 6:21: "But that ye also may know my affairs, and how I do, Tychicus, a beloved brother and faithful minister (diakonos) in the Lord, shall make known to you all things.."

    And so in addition to delivering the letter, another of Phoebe's activities was rather likely: "but that ye also may know my affairs, and how I do, [Phoebe] a beloved [(sister)] and faithful minister (diakonos) in the Lord, shall make known to you all these things...

    You see, as everyone agrees, even the down-graders of Phoebe, Paul had never yet been to Rome in service of the gospel. So the church there did not know him. He's sending them a letter. So they might not only have questions about the content of the letter itself, that Phoebe will need to explain, but also questions about Paul himself, that Phoebe will need to explain. That's her role, at a minimum, and she doesn't get that job, unless she's a somebody in the church. As I said, remarkable woman, this Phoebe of Cenchreae.

    And if Phoebe was not a minister of Christ, then, again, news to Origen, and news to Pliny the Younger as well:

    Origen (185 - 255) states: ‘This text (Romans 16,1-2) teaches with the authority of the Apostle that also women are instituted as deacons in the Church’. And may we omit the testimony of Pliny the Younger, Roman governor of Bithynia (112 AD), who reports that he arrested a group of Christians whose two female leaders bore the title of ministrae (Latin for diakonoi)?"

    So according to Pliny the Younger, in Bithynia, there was a group of Christians, led by two women ministrae (ministers).

    So it wasn't Paul nor the early church, but some later misogynist miscreants who down-graded the role of my sisters in Christ.
    Thanks - interesting read.

    What about Junia referred to by St Paul in Romans 16:7 ? He describes he/her as an "apostle".

    "Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me"
    Junia is a feminine name, it was masculanised in later transcriptions to Junias but 4thc John Chrysostom(Bishop of Constantinople) clearly refers to her as female.

    Was Junia in Romans 16:7 a female apostle in authority? | Egalitarians and Junia | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry
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  3. #773
    The Pleb The Pleb is offline

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    Jaysus Tommy - You've a lot to answer for. Do you have any idea what you're after startin'?
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  4. #774
    myksav myksav is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by SideysGhost View Post
    See this is you Believers all over. Sheer wilful pig-headed blustering ignorance.

    Fight-or-flight instinctive responses, that instinct that something is Not Right, like the instinctive response to the very lifelike robots in Japan a couple of years back, are generated by parts of the Limbic system which is a very ancient part of the brain going all the way back to the common ancestor of mammals and reptiles. Other parts of the current human brain evolved and developed in the intervening millions of years to the way it exists today.

    Of course you probably think God made the brain out of clay 6000 years ago

    Believers: too stupid to realise how stupid they are?
    Nonsense, the concept of evolution was developed by Christians, who believed in God. And in the process, discovered the wonder at how intricate everything actually is rather than "bam, it's made, that's it, full stop."

    By the way, that super-sense you have to detect specifically Believers, is that something you're born with? Or contract?
    Not the limbic system, of which I've been aware for quite a long time, but the specific mechanism by which you detect believers.
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  5. #775
    myksav myksav is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by Egyman View Post
    Quran didn't mention anything about that.
    ( JESUS in the QURAN )
    Jesus: According to Quran and Sunnah
    Ah, so the Quran is not the font of all wisdom and knowledge.
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  6. #776
    human 19 human 19 is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nebuchadnezzar View Post
    I don't think that's quite right - Pope Urban 8 and the Jesuits were initially open to Galileos heliocentric idea.
    The heliocentric theory was actually revived by Copernicus who didnt have the benefit of the telescope. Twas a bit crude but was the beginning of the end for the church's position.

    Galileo, with the newly invented telescope discovered the phases on Venus, and the fact that moons orbited Jupiter in 1610/1611 which the church couldn't deny and forgave him in 1741.



    Copernicus

    In March 1616, in connection with the Galileo affair, the Roman Catholic Church's Congregation of the Index issued a decree suspending De revolutionibus (by Copernicus) until it could be "corrected," on the grounds that the supposedly Pythagorean doctrine that the Earth moves and the Sun does not was "false and altogether opposed to Holy Scripture." The same decree also prohibited any work that defended the mobility of the Earth or the immobility of the Sun, or that attempted to reconcile these assertions with Scripture.


    The sharpest point of conflict between Copernicus' theory and the Bible concerned the story of the Battle of Gibeon in the Book of Joshua where the Hebrew forces were winning but whose opponents were likely to escape once night fell. This is averted by Joshua's prayers causing the sun and the moon to stand still.

    Galileo

    Acting on instructions from the Pope before the decree was issued, Cardinal Bellarmine informed Galileo that it was forthcoming, that the ideas it condemned could not be "defended or held", and ordered him to abandon them
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  7. #777
    Nebuchadnezzar Nebuchadnezzar is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by human 19 View Post
    The heliocentric theory was actually revived by Copernicus who didnt have the benefit of the telescope. Twas a bit crude but was the beginning of the end for the church's position.

    Galileo, with the newly invented telescope discovered the phases on Venus, and the fact that moons orbited Jupiter in 1610/1611 which the church couldn't deny and forgave him in 1741.



    Copernicus

    In March 1616, in connection with the Galileo affair, the Roman Catholic Church's Congregation of the Index issued a decree suspending De revolutionibus (by Copernicus) until it could be "corrected," on the grounds that the supposedly Pythagorean doctrine that the Earth moves and the Sun does not was "false and altogether opposed to Holy Scripture." The same decree also prohibited any work that defended the mobility of the Earth or the immobility of the Sun, or that attempted to reconcile these assertions with Scripture.


    The sharpest point of conflict between Copernicus' theory and the Bible concerned the story of the Battle of Gibeon in the Book of Joshua where the Hebrew forces were winning but whose opponents were likely to escape once night fell. This is averted by Joshua's prayers causing the sun and the moon to stand still.

    Galileo

    Acting on instructions from the Pope before the decree was issued, Cardinal Bellarmine informed Galileo that it was forthcoming, that the ideas it condemned could not be "defended or held", and ordered him to abandon them
    I'll say it again - Pope Urban 8 was initially open to Galileo's ideas. In my support, from your own link -

    Galileo's championing of heliocentrism was controversial within his lifetime, when most subscribed to either geocentrism or the Tychonic system. He met with opposition from astronomers, who doubted heliocentrism due to the absence of an observed stellar parallax. The matter was investigated by the Roman Inquisition in 1615, and they concluded that it could be supported as only a possibility, not an established fact. Galileo later defended his views in Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World Systems, which appeared to attack Pope Urban VIII and thus alienated him and the Jesuits, who had both supported Galileo up until this point
    Earlier, Pope Urban VIII had personally asked Galileo to give arguments for and against heliocentrism in the book, and to be careful not to advocate heliocentrism. He made another request, that his own views on the matter be included in Galileo's book. Only the latter of those requests was fulfilled by Galileo. Whether unknowingly or deliberately, Simplicio, the defender of the Aristotelian Geocentric view in Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World Systems, was often caught in his own errors and sometimes came across as a fool. Indeed, although Galileo states in the preface of his book that the character is named after a famous Aristotelian philosopher (Simplicius in Latin, Simplicio in Italian), the name "Simplicio" in Italian also has the connotation of "simpleton". This portrayal of Simplicio made Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World Systems appear as an advocacy book: an attack on Aristotelian geocentrism and defence of the Copernican theory. Unfortunately for his relationship with the Pope, Galileo put the words of Urban VIII into the mouth of Simplicio. Most historians agree Galileo did not act out of malice and felt blindsided by the reaction to his book. However, the Pope did not take the suspected public ridicule lightly, nor the Copernican advocacy. Galileo had alienated one of his biggest and most powerful supporters, the Pope, and was called to Rome to defend his writings.
    Galileo was a great scientist but unfortunately he was not so good when it came to diplomacy.
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  8. #778
    Mackers Mackers is offline
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    So Jesus wasn't a John then?
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  9. #779
    Cruimh Cruimh is offline
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    Did anybody else see this on Church History in the IT ?

    Faithful should distinguish between Catholic faith and Vatican state - The Irish Times - Fri, Sep 21, 2012

    It is as well Father Mannion has retired.
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  10. #780
    EPluribusUnum EPluribusUnum is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by SideysGhost View Post
    Moronic thunderingly stupid illogical gibberish. Grow a feckin brain and a bit of cop on would ya.

    "I'm afraid to die! So I cling to the comfort blanket of invisible sky people!"

    Waste. Of. Oxygen.
    But yet I did not say that I was afraid to die. Fear isn't the point. Afraid or not, decay and death will have their way. And so, afraid or not, one might wish to find a solution to the problem of decay and death.
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