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  1. #171
    Antóin Mac Comháin Antóin Mac Comháin is offline

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    Apr 2017

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Windermere View Post
    I never commented on whether the North was Pro or Anti Treaty.

    My comment about the Nordies was that we in the South tend to be pretty indifferent to them and don't really have much time for their chip on shoulder attitudes. I am simply speculating about what the views were in the 1920's. That indifference was evident by the lack of discussion during the Treaty Debates, though, in fairness, Partition was inevitable as far back as 1916 and they had already opened up Northern Parliament in 1920.

    As for the Treaty, many of the Northerners were Collins' men, and did approve of the Treaty, but on condition that the Treaty was simply a stepping stone, that something would be done about the North once they got the British Army out of the South.
    ''attitudes to Nordies was probably no different then as they are today''

    I was responding to the suggestion that the *Free Staters* abandoned the North, or as you now claim, that they were indifferent to the North.

    I'm not sure what the exact figures are, but hundreds of Belfast Nationalists enlisted in the National Army following the Treaty, but I accept that it wouldn't be fair to categorize them as Blythe-Griffith Pro-Treaty Nationalists, as they were sympathetic to IRA prisoners during the Civil War.

    Collins was right, but he was 120 years off the mark..
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  2. #172
    DrNightdub DrNightdub is offline

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    Jun 2011

    The influx of northerners into the Free State army wasn't in response to the Treaty.

    Hundreds of northern IRA fled over the border following the collapse of the May 1922 "northern offensive" and the introduction of internment. They were brought to the Curragh, ostensibly for training prior to a renewed northern campaign.

    Meanwhile, the Provisional Government decided in August, the day before Collins' death, to adopt a peaceful strategy with regard to the north and abandon any plans to attack it again.

    This was not communicated to the northerners in the Curragh until two months later. At that point, faced with a choice of returning north to face unwelcome attention from the authorities or joining the Free State army, hundreds opted to join the army.

    An entire battalion of them were posted to Kerry...
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  3. #173
    Antóin Mac Comháin Antóin Mac Comháin is offline

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    Apr 2017

    Quote Originally Posted by Catalpa View Post
    For years his assassins were unknown to the general Public. However it is now known that they were three IRA members acting off their own bat. They did it in order to avenge the loss of their comrades in the Civil War, in which O'Higgins played such a prominent role in the execution of Republican prisoners and the introduction of draconian legislation to deal with the Anti Treaty IRA. They were Timothy Coughlan, Bill Gannon and Archie Doyle. None of them were ever charged with what they did that fateful day.
    'Seán Russell, Ernie O’Malley, and Seán MacBride were the chief suspects.

    “MacBride was arrested and charged with conspiracy to murder,” Berry noted. “He was able to prove an alibi.”

    He had gone to England on the Friday beforehand, moved on to Belgium next day, and was in Brussels on the Sunday morning of the killing. Even Éamon de Valera and Frank Aiken were under suspicion. As O’Higgins lay dying, he referred to de Valera.

    “It would be most dangerous,” Berry warned Haughey, “to allow the official records as to the murder to be ever published. They are full of innuendo, conjecture, conclusions based on hearsay, etc, etc.”

    Quote Originally Posted by louis bernard View Post
    A terrible pity his murderers were never caught, if I had been around then it would have given me great pleasure to hang them myself.
    “I forgive my murderers,” O’Higgins stressed. He was brought back to his home, where he remained conscious for some time before he expired, almost five hours later.

    He told his wife that he forgave his assailants.

    “You must have no bitterness in your heart for them,” he emphasised.

    Nine months later, on the 60th anniversary of her father’s assassination, Una O’Higgins-O’Malley, the youngest daughter of Kevin O’Higgins, made a magnificent request that the anniversary Mass at the Church of the Assumption in Booterstown be celebrated for her father and his three killers.

    “It would have been his wish that their names should be included in the Mass,” she declared. -

    Ironically, vengeance probably wouldn't have been in accordance with O'Higgins wishes. MacBrides cast-iron alibi looks suspicious.
    Last edited by Antóin Mac Comháin; 14th November 2017 at 10:16 PM.
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  4. #174
    Kilbarry1 Kilbarry1 is offline

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    Jul 2008

    Department of Justice and Assassination of its first Minister Kevin O'Higgins in 1927

    This is from another topic "Charlie Flanagan Next" (No it doesn't mean assassination but he certainly deserves the boot!)
    Charlie Flanagan next

    Diarmaid Ferriter has an article on the history of Dept of Justice in the Irish Times on 2 December - to show the background to the current Scandal/Hysteria
    Department of Justice has History of Dismissing Challenges

    It's behind a paywall but he stresses the huge challenges faced by the State in its early years - and the role of Dept of Justice and its first Minister Kevin O'Higgins..

    ... In most of these tasks civil servants played a key stabilising role and also generated much power for themselves. As JJ McElligott assistant secretary of department of finance in 1923 saw it, one of the advantages of the inexperience of O'Higgins and his colleagues and the distraction of the Civil War was that it allowed civil servants to get on with State building without too much political interference.

    It is no harm to remember this heritage in light of the turmoil witnessed this week. A viable democracy and effective Civil Service emerging in the most difficult of circumstances were two of the main achievements of that era. Another enduring legacy of that period was excessive centralisation, too much power in the hands of individual civil servants and contempt for those who sought to expose wrongdoing or ask troubling questions.

    On the assassination of Kevin O'Higgins in 1927

    "There are no real rules of war" O'Higgins insisted on defending the execution of anti-Treaty Republicans,: "The safety and preservation of the people is the highest law." The attempt to dehumanise his opponents Was propagandist caricature and and ignored the sincerity and depth of their feelings of betrayal.; just as he in turn was caricatured as a man whose heart had turned to stone. It had done nothing of the sort. In his colleague Eoin MacNeill's memoir of these fervid years, finally published last year, MacNeill recalled how he witnessed the assassination of of O'Higgins in 1927. As MacNeill cradled him., O'Higgins told him "I want you to say that I forgive my murderers".

    This was all the more remarkable given that four years previously during the Civil War, O'Higgins had buried his father after Republicans killed him during an attack on his house......

    Compare that to the behaviour of the current Minister for Justice who slandered former Sister of Mercy Nora Wall in the Dail in 2009 and who is now trying to blame his own civil servants for his political problems!

    Irish Salem: Justice Minister Charlie Flanagan and Former FG Chair Phil Hogan Vs George Hook and Nora Wall
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