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  1. #141
    Rory Carr Rory Carr is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toidissatafu View Post
    Maybe impossible to ever know what the truth is as British intelligence was involved >> according to the late Paul Foot (son of former prime Minister)[empasis added] & several other authors, MI5 & others have used such evil for purpose & covered it up.
    Who Framed Colin Wallace?
    Paul Foot. Macmillan, London 1989
    Paul Foot claims >> that Colin Wallace tried to alert the authorities to child abuse ar Kincora years before it finally came to light. He alleges that McGrath was working for MI5 and that the Security Service ignored the plight of the boys at Kincora to protect their agent.
    While I applaud much of what you say I must correct the above error regarding a former comrade. Paul Foot's father, Hugh Foot, was never Prime Minister although he did get to be Governor of Cyprus, a much more pleasant island than Britain and with a particularly pleasant climate.. You may be confusing him with his brother (and Paul's uncle), Michael Foot who was Leader of the labour Party and Leader of the Opposition but never, alas, Prime Minister that position having gone instead to Margaret Thatcher all because, apparently, Foot wore a duffel coat and she did not. At least according to the British tabloid press.
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  2. #142
    runwiththewind runwiththewind is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drogheda445 View Post
    I don't agree with the level anti-Catholicism has been taken too in the past few years, because frankly, I feel we becoming the most anti-Catholic country in Europe, despite having a nominal Catholic majority. But the Church did, for 60 years, from 1920 until at least the 1980s, have virtually complete control over Irish society, and in a republic that has sought to "cherish all children of the nation equally" Catholicism seems to have been virtually tied to the state for the entirety of that period.

    I don't agree with the Orange Order on many levels, and some of the bigotry displayed by some of its members is disgraceful to put it mildly, but we have long forgotten to recognise the orange on the Tricolour. The Orange Order does represent Protestant tradition on this island, and has done for more than 200 years. Protestants were marginalised in Irish society (although certainly not the extent to which Northern Catholics were marginalised in Northern Ireland), and it is time we continued building the links between our communities. We are not bending over backwards kissing their feet if we so much as host them in the Seanad. They hold a significant presence on this island, and we need to recognised that.
    How were protestants marginalized is this country? This is bandied about too readily without an iota of proof. They have done well in the jobs section, in education, health, the legal profession and self-employment and politics. Over represented in many professions in relation to their numbers. Their schools are over subsidized by the taxpayer by extra monetary subventions that no other schools get.

    Nobody has questioned their historical role in this country and their political role in it? Nobody has asked them to have back the stolen churches and cathedrals, many now historical landmarks.

    They may not have liked being a minority in a majority catholic state, but they didn't mind being a minority when they were in charge with the might of the British power to back them.

    So remind me again, how were/are protestants marginalized in the Free State and later the Rep? In what way did they suffer?

    The OO doesn't represent the protestant tradition in this country. 37,000 represent some protestants and not all their traditions. Most protestants don't give a fiddlers for the OO.
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  3. #143
    Ramon Mercadar Ramon Mercadar is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Brother View Post
    You're right: Ivana Bacik and David Norris pontificating against teh catholic churche's "intolerance" but welcoming the head of an organisation that expels people for simply going to a catholic funeral....


    ...that is completely and absolutely nuts.
    I disagree with a lot of your points here but you are correct about the OO. I think Norris and Bacik et al should have met with the OO rep but should have raised the fact that the OO has some rather sectarian characteristics. If you have even one RC grandparent you are barred from joining the OO. Same in the SS, if you had one Jewish grandparent you couldn't join. Himmler probably got the idea from the OO.

    I think the OO have every right to march unmolested in Dublin. But as long as they march in areas where they are not welcome in the North then they shouldn;t be made welsome here ie no reception in the Mansion House.
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  4. #144
    Drogheda445 Drogheda445 is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by runwiththewind View Post
    How were protestants marginalized is this country? This is bandied about too readily without an iota of proof. They have done well in the jobs section, in education, health, the legal profession and self-employment and politics. Over represented in many professions in relation to their numbers. Their schools are over subsidized by the taxpayer by extra monetary subventions that no other schools get.
    It was clear from the start. Many Protestant landlord's had their houses burnt, not to mention the burning of the Protestant orphanage at Ballyconree. By 1925, divorce had been banned, despite opposition from Protestants, and the Na Temere doctrine was introduced. By 1932, the Catholic nation had been declared by De Valera, and Irish society became entrenched with Catholic doctrine. Many Protestants were also disadvantaged in applying for jobs. Trinity College (where many Protestants attended, and which was always a stronghold for unionism in Ireland), for example, was not accepted as an educational source when applying for jobs, meaning many had to leave Ireland to find work.

    Like I said, discrimination was hardly as rampant in the South as it was in the North, but it existed. What's undoubtedly true is that the Republic was a staunchly Catholic country, and it would remain so for decades.

    The OO doesn't represent the protestant tradition in this country. 37,000 represent some protestants and not all their traditions. Most protestants don't give a fiddlers for the OO.
    They are actually a significant part of Protestant culture in both Northern Ireland and to some degree in the Republic, but mainly in Ulster counties. As we are a democracy, we should accept them even if we don't agree with them. The fact is that the Orange on our flag is meant to symbolise Orange tradition, and we should recognise it as such.

    I will admit I haven't much time for them either, as there can be incredible bigotry amongst their ranks.
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  5. #145
    readytogo readytogo is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drogheda445 View Post
    It was clear from the start. Many Protestant landlord's had their houses burnt, not to mention the burning of the Protestant orphanage at Ballyconree. By 1925, divorce had been banned, despite opposition from Protestants, and the Na Temere doctrine was introduced. By 1932, the Catholic nation had been declared by De Valera, and Irish society became entrenched with Catholic doctrine. Many Protestants were also disadvantaged in applying for jobs. Trinity College (where many Protestants attended, and which was always a stronghold for unionism in Ireland), for example, was not accepted as an educational source when applying for jobs, meaning many had to leave Ireland to find work.
    Ne Temere was issued in 1907, long before independence. I don't think it can be considered oppressive of Protestants. It was issued by a private organisation (in this case, the Catholic Church) that had a clear right to set its own membership rules. Rather like the Orange Order banning its members from attending a Catholic service. Indeed the (current) Orange Order's rules are considerably stricter than the long-superseded Ne Temere decree.

    Protestants and Catholics both discriminated against each other in Irish society. I'd wager that where religious discrimination in the ROI existed, it was generally to the advantage of Protestants. The top tiers of the Bank of Ireland, Guinness, the Irish Times, etc were all dominated by Protestants until the 60s.

    I agree that the Irish state was fairly Catholic in its ethos, but that wasn't in isolation from the society which it governed. The reason Ireland was so Catholic was because that's what the vast majority of the people wanted at the time. I don't believe the introduction of divorce was 'anti-Protestant', many Protestants at the time supported the ban on divorce, including some CoI bishops. The Protestant and Catholic churches had a lot in common when it came to views on sex and social issues. Some of that was down to Victorian values, post-Famine demographics etc. and not especially religious in origin.
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  6. #146
    runwiththewind runwiththewind is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drogheda445 View Post
    It was clear from the start. Many Protestant landlord's had their houses burnt, not to mention the burning of the Protestant orphanage at Ballyconree. By 1925, divorce had been banned, despite opposition from Protestants, and the Na Temere doctrine was introduced. By 1932, the Catholic nation had been declared by De Valera, and Irish society became entrenched with Catholic doctrine. Many Protestants were also disadvantaged in applying for jobs. Trinity College (where many Protestants attended, and which was always a stronghold for unionism in Ireland), for example, was not accepted as an educational source when applying for jobs, meaning many had to leave Ireland to find work.

    Like I said, discrimination was hardly as rampant in the South as it was in the North, but it existed. What's undoubtedly true is that the Republic was a staunchly Catholic country, and it would remain so for decades.



    They are actually a significant part of Protestant culture in both Northern Ireland and to some degree in the Republic, but mainly in Ulster counties. As we are a democracy, we should accept them even if we don't agree with them. The fact is that the Orange on our flag is meant to symbolise Orange tradition, and we should recognise it as such.

    I will admit I haven't much time for them either, as there can be incredible bigotry amongst their ranks.
    They had their houses burnt during the WOI and civil war, but not later. The Ne Temere, as insidious as it was, was papal doctrine and implemented in most catholic countries. It was not state law.

    Trinity college was a bastion of protestant education and to this day has never had a catholic provost. Many protestants held the very best jobs and even managed to become head of state. The medical profession was littered with Trinity graduates. Sure there was isolated incidents of discrimination but in general, protestants were doing very nicely. To this day, 25% of farms over 100 acres are held by protestants. The protestant community hold an enormous amount of wealth, way above their numbers.

    As for immigration, surely protestants and catholics were subjected to the same economic climate. You must remember that the Irish state, from its inception, began with little and had to build. Outside of NE Ireland, little industry existed.

    Of course I accept the protestant community. I have never seen them as anything other than part of our country and communities. Don't you think that the reason they are not st vocal is because they know this too.

    Is accepting an intolerant and bigoted organization really progress, given that they are not accepted by the majority of their own co-religious?
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