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  1. #61
    JohnD66 JohnD66 is offline

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    More on CW casualties here.

    Report on Talk: ‘Establishing the Free State in Conflict’ | The Irish Story

    The Military Pension files, which have recently been released to the public and partly digitised here, contain some 300,000 files on about 80,000 people. The files at issue here (1D, 5D DP) relate to payment to dependents of those who ‘died on active service in the national [Free State] forces’ ‘following lawful orders’ and ‘not due to negligence or misconduct’. Dependents left without a source of income were entitled to a payment of 10 pounds and 26 weeks’ pay. If ‘destitute’ thereafter wives might get a widow’s pension.

    These files according to McEvoy show about 900 fatalities in the National Army up to the end of 1924.

    On the other side, relatives of anti-Treaty IRA combatants were also entitled to claim for compensation for the death of family members after 1934. When asked, Patrick Brennan of the Military Archives at Cathal Brugha Barracks, replied that this data still has to be fully analysed but that there are about 500 such claims
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  2. #62
    JohnD66 JohnD66 is offline

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  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toland View Post
    I'm always struck by the low casualty figures in the Anglo-Irish and even the Civil War. They were clearly popgun fights compared to comparable conflicts around the same time in Europe.
    They are better understood as policing operations than wars.

    Of course if you have been caught doing a spot of ethnic cleansing, it's always best to start muttering about a "war".
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  4. #64
    Mitsui2 Mitsui2 is online now
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnD66 View Post
    I've been really looking forward to this since I first heard of it. The Irish Story is an excellent site and I've always found Dorney's contributions to it to be quality stuff, while his previous book, Peace After the Final Battle was also excellent.

    To me the besetting problem with reading much about the Civil War (as I have been doing for a long while now) has always been - and to a large extent remains - a sort of lingering whataboutery from supporters of both sides (or at least of the philosophies - for want of a better word - of both sides) that turns up in all sorts of unexpected places.

    Admittedly this has faded enormously in recent years, but you still come across whiffs of it - not to mention the barefaced ahistorical nonsense you still sometimes meet from "Stater" and "Republican" alike. Any new book that tries "to understand the mindsets of both sides and to judge their choices as little as possible" (as the linked irishstory introduction says) is not only timely but very long overdue, and on past performance Dorney seems more likely than most to achieve that aim.

    Personally I'm especially struck by his Conrad reference - precisely the same one occurred to me, in the same context, while I was standing on a bridge looking at the IFSC area a couple of years ago, thinking of some of the scenes that the area had witnessed.

    Thanks for the heads-up - my Kindle copy just arrived!
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  5. #65
    Lord Windermere Lord Windermere is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnD66 View Post
    Even compared to the War of Independence, the violence of the civil war was to some degree limited. There was far less shooting of informers for instance, of which to date I have not found any cases in Dublin in 1922-23 as opposed to 15 in May and June 1921 alone.
    Counties that had been peaceful enough during the Tan War, were bating the heads of each other in the Civil War eg Galway & Mayo

    The IRA were significantly weaker as the Civil War wore on, and The Free Staters knew everything about them: their identity, their probable hide outs, the character of the men (obviously, the IRA in the Civil War recruited new lads who had little to do with the Tan War) . The public were not as forthcoming to supply the IRA men with shelter and food and often had to resort to staying in ditches or up the mountains. Moreover, the Church again, threatened ex communication on anyone in the IRA (as they did during the Tan War) This had a significant affect on men who were religious

    People like Tom Barry and Dan Breen (who wisely went off the the US, in the middle of the War) came out to say that their hearts weren't in the fighting. Based on the actions of Barry during the war, that might be an honest comment.(Granted, but for Lynch, Limerick probably would have exploded)
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  6. #66
    JohnD66 JohnD66 is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Windermere View Post
    Counties that had been peaceful enough during the Tan War, were bating the heads of each other in the Civil War eg Galway & Mayo

    The IRA were significantly weaker as the Civil War wore on, and The Free Staters knew everything about them: their identity, their probable hide outs, the character of the men (obviously, the IRA in the Civil War recruited new lads who had little to do with the Tan War) . The public were not as forthcoming to supply the IRA men with shelter and food and often had to resort to staying in ditches or up the mountains. Moreover, the Church again, threatened ex communication on anyone in the IRA (as they did during the Tan War) This had a significant affect on men who were religious

    People like Tom Barry and Dan Breen (who wisely went off the the US, in the middle of the War) came out to say that their hearts weren't in the fighting. Based on the actions of Barry during the war, that might be an honest comment.(Granted, but for Lynch, Limerick probably would have exploded)
    Yes, that's true. It looks like the death toll for 1919-21 and 1922-23 in the 26 counties is about the same - about 2,000 dead. In the Civil War, combat was spread, t leat initially, over a much wider area than in the 'Tan War'. Cork was significantly less violent but places like Sligo, Wexford and Kildare were more violent in the later period. In places like Dublin and Tipperary the violence seems to have been of about the same intensity in the Civil War as earlier. Certainly as many combatants were killed, but generally fewer civilians.

    Also, while there were fewer informers shot in the Civil War, I've had to revise what I said earlier about few being killed. In Tipperary the IRA was almost equally ruthless n the Civil War as in the WoI. And as for Breen, for a man whose heat wasn't in the CW, he was still plenty ruthless.

    http://www.theirishstory.com/2017/04.../#.WYNGmFGQzIU
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  7. #67
    JohnD66 JohnD66 is offline

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    History show episode on the 'Civil War in Dublin here.

    37 The Civil War in Dublin - The Irish History Show
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  8. #68
    Antóin Mac Comháin Antóin Mac Comháin is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnD66 View Post
    History show episode on the 'Civil War in Dublin here.

    37 The Civil War in Dublin - The Irish History Show
    If the interview is anything to go by, that should be one helluva read.
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