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  1. #11
    Hitch 22 Hitch 22 is offline

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    Dec 2011

    Ireland became part of the Angevin Empire (a modern term) of the Plantagenet dyansty.

    The Angevin Empire circa 1172.

    Henry II was not just King of England (1154–89) but also Count of Anjou, Count of Maine, Duke of Normandy, Duke of Aquitaine, Count of Nantes, and Lord of Ireland.

    Henry II of England - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    The Welsh-Normans (they were most likely French speaking like King Henry) who invaded Ireland led by Strongbow were ready to establish their own independent realm in Ireland before King Henry imposed himself upon them and made them acknowledge him as Lord of Ireland.
    The invasion of Ireland was part of a Cluny (a Benedictine monastry at Cluny established by William I of Aquitane in the 10th century led to a radical reform of medieval Christianity) inspired a continent wide crusade to standardise European Christianity - the Normans looked upon the Celtic Christianity of the Gaelic Irish as heretical if not near pagan.

    The same reforming spirit that inspired the conquest of the Holy Land and capture of Jersualem and the creation of the Latin States was behind the conquest of Ireland. The Knights Templar and other orders made up of ambitious and landless second, third and fourth sons of nobles in Normandy and Britain established castles and the Benedictines and other orders took over the monastic sites.
    Last edited by Hitch 22; 1st May 2012 at 08:52 PM.
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  2. #12
    Tea Party Patriot Tea Party Patriot is offline
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    Oct 2010

    Quote Originally Posted by Riadach View Post
    Cambro-Norman is the term Seán Duffy uses.
    Probably a more apt term than Anglo Norman for describing the initial invaders.

    Like most Normans of time though they had no problem intermarrying in their various holdings while still retaining their Norman identity. Remember at the time the Norman lands were far flung from England, Acquatain, Normandy, Sicilly, and Palestine. Three different kingdoms that saw errant knights seeking their fortune wherever opportunity existed.
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  3. #13
    former wesleyan former wesleyan is offline
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    Nov 2009

    Quote Originally Posted by Catalpa View Post
    Bit of both really

    But to the Gaels they were English Invaders
    To the Gaels they were French speaking Normans.
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  4. #14
    Tea Party Patriot Tea Party Patriot is offline
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    Oct 2010

    Quote Originally Posted by SeamusNapoleon View Post
    Bretons too, though?
    Indeed and Flemish, there are a lot of Flemish names in Wexford to this day.
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  5. #15
    Tea Party Patriot Tea Party Patriot is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Catalpa View Post
    Bit of both really

    But to the Gaels they were English Invaders
    While the kingdom of England existed I personally think it took until Edward I before a real English identity began to be established. Up until his time the English kings were often more concerned about their lands in France and indeed he himself did his fair share of fighting there.
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  6. #16
    anationoceagain anationoceagain is offline

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    Apr 2011

    Quote Originally Posted by gaelach View Post
    It's an awful pity they (we?) didn't keep the aul French, all the same.
    sullen French teenagers ;"Quoi?"

    sullen dublin teenagers ; "Wha?"


    still echoes through history...
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  7. #17
    anationoceagain anationoceagain is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by Catalpa View Post
    Bit of both really

    But to the Gaels they were English Invaders
    bloody welfare tourists..
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  8. #18
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    An interesting quote from MacCarthaigh's book, perhaps showing how the Welsh were glad to be rid of a troublemaker even if it meant him invading Ireland!

    "MacMurchadha (McMurrough) came to an agreement with the king of wales concering the help he had promised to send with him to Ireland. The king aided him by giving him Robert FitzStephen, whom he had in prison for three years, and by affirming to MacMurchadha that he would come to Ireland with him in consideration of his release, together with as much of a following as he could get."

    Another interesting thing about the early invaders was the connection of the Welsh princess Nest who was the daughter of Rhys ap Tudor Maw (an ancestor of Henry Tudor later king of England and Prince of Derbunath ). Nest had children with three different Norman suitors Stephen constable of Cardigan (FitzStephen), Gerald de Winsor (FitzGerald) and Henry I of England (FitzHenry), offspring and grand children from each of these unions took part in and played major rolls in the invasion of Ireland.

    Incidently Gerald Cambrensis the controversial historian was also a grandson of Nest.
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  9. #19
    Hitch 22 Hitch 22 is offline

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    Dec 2011


    Archbold - Wicklow - Anglo-Norman
    Archdeacon - Kilkenny - Norman, le Ercedekne, later Mac Ó Oda
    Archer - Dublin, Kilkenny - Norman, le Archer
    Athy - Kildare, Galway - Norman (Cambro, Anglo?)
    Ayl(e)ward - Waterford, Kilkenny - Anglo-Norman
    Babe - Louth - Anglo-Norman, le Babbe
    Baldwin - Waterford - German-Flemish, Baldwyn
    Balf(f)e - Meath - Anglo-Norman, balbh
    Barbour - Dublin, Cork - Norman-French, barbier
    Barnewall - Dublin, Meath - Norman, de Barneville
    Barrett - Cork, Mayo - Cambro-Norman, Baroid or Bairéad
    Barron - Waterford - Cambro-Norman, Fitzgerald derivative
    Barry - Cork - Norman, de Barri
    Beamish - Cork, Kerry - Norman-French, place-name Beaumais
    Begg(s) - Antrim - Anglo-Norman (also a Scottish name)
    Bellew - Louth, Meath - Norman, de Bel Eau (Beleawe)
    Belton - Dublin - Anglo-Norman, de Welton
    Bermingham - Offaly, Galway - Norman, de Bermingham
    Berrill - Louth
    Blake - Galway - Welsh - Caddell; one of 'Tribes of Galway'
    Blanchfield - Kilkenny - Norman-French, de Blancheville
    Bluett - Cork, Limerick
    Bodkin - Galway - Anglo-Norman, Geraldine derivation (baudekin)
    Bonfield - Clare, Limerick - Anglo-Norman, de Bonneville
    Brannagh - Kilkenny, Wexford, Waterford - Welsh, Breathnach
    Brett - Dublin - Anglo-Norman, possibly le Bret (e.g. Milo le Bret)
    Broe - Leinster - Norman, de Berewa and de Bruth
    Broy - Kilkenny - Norman, de Broy
    Browne - Galway - Norman, le Brun (Brunach)
    Bryan - Klikenny, Wexford - Anglo-Norman, personal name Brian
    Burke - Galway, Mayo - Norman, de Burgo
    Burnell - Dublin, Meath - Anglo-Norman, le Brun
    Bury - Wicklow - Norman, de Bury
    Busher - Waterford, Wexford - Norman-Flemish, Bouchier
    Butler - Kilkenny, Tipperary - Norman, Fitzwalter (de Botiller)
    Cadogan - Cork - Cambro, a Welsh forename (Cadwgan)
    Campion - Kilkenny, Laois - Norman, de Champagnes (Champaynes)
    Cantillon - Kerry - Norman, de Cauntelo
    Cantwell - Kilkenny - Anglo-Norman, de Kentenall or de Kentwell
    Carbery - Kildare - Norman (not the early lords of Carbury)
    Carew - Cork, Tipperary - Cambro-Norman, de Carron or de Curio
    Cashell - Louth - Anglo-Nomran, de Cashel
    Chambers - Mayo - Anglo-Norman, de la Chambre
    Clare, Clear - Kilkenny, Wexford - Norman, de Clare
    Cody - Kilkenny, Wexford - Norman, Mac Ó Oda (see Archdeacon)
    Cogan - Cork - Morman, de Cogan
    Collier - Dublin, 14th century - Anglo-Norman, le Collier
    Comyn - Dublin, Clare - Anglo-Norman, de Comines (also Scottish)
    Comerford - Kilkenny, Waterford - Anglo, village in Staffordshire
    Condon - Cork - Anglo-Norman, Caunteton
    (Mac)Costello(e) Mayo - Norman, Mac Oisdealbh (son of Gilebrt de Nangle)
    Courcy - Cork - Anglo-Norman, de Courcy
    Croker - Kilkenny - Anglo-Norman, le Crocker
    Cruise - Dublin, Meath - Anglo-Norman, de Cruys
    Cullen - Wexford - Norman-Flemish
    Cusack - Clare - Norman-Flemish, de Cussac
    Cussen - Cork, Tipperary - Norman
    Dalton - Clare, Meath - Anglo-Norman, D'Alton
    Darcy - Meath - Anglo-Norman, D'Arcy
    Dardis - Meath, Westmeath - Norman, D'Ardis
    Daton - Kilkenny - Anglo-Norman, D'Auton
    Day - Wexford - de Haye
    Deane - Dublin, Kilkenny - de Denne
    Delamer - Dublin - de la Mare
    Denvir - Down - D'Anver of Norfolk
    Devereux - Wexford - Norman, d'Evreux
    Dillon - Westmeath - Anglo-Norman, Viscounts de Lion of Brittany
    Dondon - Limerick - de Auno
    Dowdall - Dublin - Anglo-Norman, Dovedale
    Elvery - Kilkenny, Carlow - Anglo, Albrey?
    Erley - Kilkenny, Tipperary - d'Erley
    Esmonde - Wexford
    Eustace - Kildare - Anglo-Norman
    Everard - Meath, Tipperary - Anglo-Norman
    Fagan - Dublin, Meath - Norman (Faodhagain in Gaelic)
    Fallas - Fermanagh - Norman, de Falaise, town in Normandy
    Fannin(g) - Limerick, Tipperary - Norman, personal name Panin
    Fitzelle - Kerry - Norman
    Fitzgerald - Cork, Kildare - Cambro-Norman, Gerald of Windsor
    Fitzgibbon - Mayo - Norman, MacGibbon Burke
    Fitzgibbon - Limerick - Cambro-Norman, The White Knight (FitzGerald)
    Fitzhenry - Wexford
    Fitzmaurice - Kerry - Cambro-Norman, Morrisey (FitzGerald)
    Fitzmaurice - Mayo - Cambro-Norman, branch of Prendergast
    Fitzsimmons - Cavan, Down, Mayo - Norman, Fitzsimon
    Fitzstephens - Cork - Cambro-Norman, Robert FitzStephen
    Flavelle - Armagh
    Fleming - Meath - Flemish, Lord Slane
    Forrestal - Kilkenny, Wexford - Anglo-Norman, le Forstal
    Francis - Galway
    Frizell - Cork, Limerick - Norman, le Frisel (of Friesland)
    French - Wexford, Galway - Norman, de French
    Freyne - Kilkenny - Norman, de la Freigne
    Furlong - Wexford - Anglo, meaning a field or stadium
    Ganter - Dublin
    Garland, Gernon - Louth, Meath - Anglo-Norman, Roger de Gernon
    Goold - Dublin, Cork
    Gorham - Kerry
    Goulding - Dublin, Cork - e.g. Nicholas Goldinges (1314)
    Grace - Kilkenny - Cambro-Norman, Raymond le Gros
    Granville - Kerry
    Grennon - Meath - Norman, Robert de Grenan
    Griffin - Kilkenny - Welsh, (also an Gaelic-Irish surname)
    Griffith - Kilkenny - Welsh, Rhys ap Griffith (Gryffyd)
    Hackett - Carlow, Kildare, Kilkenny - Norman, personal name
    Hayden or Headon - Dublin, Wexford - Norman, de Heddon
    Hayes or Hay - Wexford - Norman, de la Haye
    Herbert - Kerry
    Hollywood - Dublin
    Hore - Wexford - Anglo-Norman, le Hore
    Howlin, Holden - Kilkenny - Welsh, Huolyn
    Hussey - Meath, Kerry - Norman, de Hose and de Hosey
    Jordan - Mayo, Clare - Norman, Jordan d'Exeter (Mac Siurtain)
    Joyce - Galway, Mayo - Welsh, de Jorse
    Keating - Wexford, Kilkenny, Waterford - Cambro-Norman, Cethyn
    Kennefick - Dublin, Louth, Kilkenny, Cork - Welsh place name
    Kiersey - Waterford
    Lacy - Meath, Limerick - Anglo-Norman, de Lacy
    Laffan - Wexford, Tipperary - Anglo-Norman, La Font or La Fin
    Lambert - Wexford, Galway - Norman
    Landy - Kilkenny, Tipperary - Norman, de la Launde
    Lawless - Dublin, Galway - Anglo-Norman, Old English word laghles
    Liston - Limerick - de Lexinton
    Logan - Ulster - Norman, de Logan (also a Gaelic name)
    Lucey - Cork - Norman, de Lucy
    Lynch - Galway - de Lench
    Lyons - Meath - Norman, de Leon or de Lyons (also a Gaelic name)
    MacAndrew - Mayo - Norman, branch of the Barretts
    MacCabe - Co Cavan - Scottish gallowglasses, 14th century
    MacElligot - Kerry - Cambro-Norman, FitzElias (also Gaelic?)
    MacHale - Mayo - Welsh, personal name Howell (also a Gaelic name)
    MacQuillan - Antrim - Norman-Welsh, Lords of the Route, Hugelin
    Mandeville - Tipperary - Norman, de Magna Villa
    Mansfield - Waterford - de Mandeville
    Marmion or Merriman - Dublin - Norman, Marmyoun
    Marshall - Wexford - Mareschal
    Maunsell - Tipperary, Limerick - Anglo-Norman, le mansel
    Meere - Meath - Norman?, de la Mere (also Gaelic)
    Merrick - Connacht - Welsh, Mac Mibhric (also an English name)
    Meyler - Wexford - Cambro-Norman, Meyler FitzHenry
    Mockler - Tipperary - Norman, Malcierc (Beauclerc)
    Molyneux - Kerry, Ulster
    Montagne - Armagh, Tyrone - de Montaigne
    Morris - Galway - Norman, de Marries (de Marisco)
    Morrissey - Waterford, Limerick, Cork - Norman, de Marisco
    Mortimer - Meath - Norman
    Montmorency - - de Monte Marisco (see Morris)
    Mountain - Waterford - de la Montagne
    Nangle or Nagle - Meath, Cork - d'Angulos (see Costelloe)
    Neville - Wexford, Kilkenny - Norman, de Neville
    Noble - Fermanagh - le Noble
    Nugent - Cork, Westmeath - de Nogent
    Oliver - Louth
    Palmer - Kerry, Meath - Norman, old-French le paumer
    Pender - see Prendergast
    Pentony - Meath, Louth, Dublin
    Peppard - Louth - Norman, de Pipard
    Plunkett - Louth, Meath - Anglo-Norman, corruption of blanchet
    Power - Waterford - Anglo-Norman, le Poer
    Prendergast - Waterford, Mayo - Anglo-Norman, village in Pembrokeshire
    Prior - Dublin, Limerick - Norman
    Proud - Ormond
    Punch - Kildare, Dublin - Norman, forename Poncius (Ponce)
    Purcell - Tipperary, Kilkenny - Norman-French word porcel
    Quilter - Kerry - le Cuilter
    Redmond - Wexford - Norman, Alexander Raymond
    Rice - Limerick, Kerry - Welsh, Rhys (also a Irish-Gaelic name)
    Roberts or Rochford - Cork... - de Ridelsford
    Roche - Wexford, Cork - Norman-Flemish, de la Roche (fitzGodebert)
    Rochfort - Westmeath - Norman, de Rupefort
    Rossiter - Wexford - Anglo-Norman
    Russell - Down - Anglo-Norman (also an English name)
    Sarsfield - Cork - Norman?, de Sharisfeld
    Scriven - Dublin, Cork
    Shortall - Kilkenny
    Sinnott - Wexford, Kildare - Norman-Flemish
    St Leger - Waterford, Cork
    Savage - Down, Kilkenny
    Scales - Limerick, Clare - Anglo-Norman
    Scurlock - Wexford
    Shinnors - Tipperary, Limerick - Anglo-Norman
    Stackpoole - Clare, Dublin
    Stapleton - Kilkenny, Tipperary
    Staunton - Mayo - Anglo-Norman - Mac an Bhileadha (MacEvilly)
    Taaffe - Louth, Sligo - Welsh, personal name David
    Talbot - Dublin
    Teeling - Meath
    Tobin - Tipperary, Kilkenny - French-Norman, de St. Aubyn
    Tuite - Meath, Westmeath - French-Norman, de Tiúit
    Tyrrell - Westmeath
    Ussher - Dublin - Norman, Nevill family
    Veale - Waterford
    Viniter - Munster - le Vineter
    Wade - Waterford
    Wall - Limerick, Waterford - Norman, du Val or de Wale or de Valle
    Walsh - Kilkenny, Wexford - Breathnach (Breton), often denotes a Welsh origin
    Warren - Dublin - Anglo-Norman, de la Varenne or de Warenne
    Waring - Meath, Kilkenny, Down - Guarin
    White - Limerick - le Blund
    Woulfe - Kildare, Limerick, - Norman, le Woulf
    Wyse - Waterford - le Wyse
    Ireland's History - Norman and Cambro-Norman Surnames
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  10. #20
    Fr. Hank Tree Fr. Hank Tree is online now

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    Feb 2007

    I don't care whether they were welsh, japanese or romulan.

    They will always be english bastards to me.
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