Originally Posted by Schomberg

Yeah, no one believes that. I'm a West Cork Protestant with family going back in that area for centuries and I've never heard that. I'm sure the rebels (want to) believe it, but not a single Prod would even consider it. You have to remember, many of the same families who lived through it, still live there to this day. Catholic and Protestant. You'd be surprised what people talk about when they're comfortable. Too bad I was born too late to hear stuff from "the horses mouth" so to speak, the older generation that would have grown up at that time. Harris is really the kiss to death to a lot of this stuff. It's a sensitive subject, for both sides. The rebels get all defensive and the prods get all nervous that someone is stirring the pot in these little rural villages and towns where they're a small minority. How can a proper, rational, informed and reasoned debate ever develop in those sorts of circumstances?

I'm off to bed.

Sorry, just not convinced that you are from the Rep, never mind West Cork.

Originally Posted by purpledon

Sorry, just not convinced that you are from the Rep, never mind West Cork.

Curious. On what grounds do you make that assumption?

Originally Posted by WilliamLee

Curious. On what grounds do you make that assumption?

She's a mentalist.

Originally Posted by Ireniall

You sound there like your saying that somehow the physical force tradition was somehow entitled to a fair shake or something when in any normal country these people would be in prison or institutions-it's nearly like it was some kind of a game.I mean it's almost like complaining that there are too many police for those poor little criminals-what chance do they have.Coogan is just a republican clone trotting out the same cliched auld tripe that we were all taught in schools for ninety years-the Cruiser was quite right to keep him under pressure.You know showing no quarter to those who want to use heinous murder to further their political aims in a democratic country is normal.

No,

I'm merely pointing out that this massive republican conspiracy to control all fora only existed in the head of the likes of Harris and Cruise O'Brien. The problem was that anyone (not necessarily a physical force republican) who didn't go along with their distorted media narrative was sidelined. This is a problem not because IRA propaganda didn't get publicity, but because our understanding of the situtation was seriously lessened by a deliberate policy of ignoring opinions the powers that be didn't agree with.

I'm not complaining because An Phoblacht wasn't included in "What it says in the Papers" every morning. I'm complaining that a distorted analysis of the problem was foisted on us.

I don't know when you went to school but when I was a child in the 70's and 80's "that cliched auld tripe" was not being thought so I don't know where you're getting your 90 years from.

Your basic point seems to be that if the facts don't assist the intended outcome, the facts must be ignored. I would respectfully suggest that that is not a very useful way to deal with things.

Originally Posted by runwiththewind

I haven't read the thread in its entirely but I just want to pose a question. This story has always intrigued me as my gran aunt who died last year, aged 95, was brought up in Dunmanway after the age of 10. Initially, she was from another Munster county and was whisked away when her mother died. Anyway, she was born in 1916 and she was about 6 years old, these killings occurred. She knew of these killings before she moved to Dunmanway and then heard the counter-stories in Dunmanway. She married a W. Cork protestant and settled in Cork City and had a long and happy life. But one rumour that has never gone away is the story that the killings were carried out by British intelligence. Both she and her husband (he was always regarded as my gran uncle), told me this story. They believed that this rumour had weight because the names of the killers were never known and occurred when Barry and Hale were out of the county. Neither believed in a rogue element within the IRA and I believe they were judging the IRA on Barry's and Hale's actions when they returned. They believed that if the killers names had been know, then the motive would reveal itself.

Nothing I have read, and I'm no expert, on these killings substantiates these rumours one jot, but yet they persist, even to this day.

Has anyone heard this, if so, could they elaborate further?

Some great posts by the way.

That comes from the grassy knoll school of delusion, the same that said Collins was shot by one of his own, when it was actually known who killed him from the anti treaty side.

Originally Posted by Ireniall

Well at least one Shinner could grasp the significance of what happened and did the right thing according to his conscience-his own imminent demise allowing a last opportunity to make something of an important gesture before taking that journey from which there is no return.He shamed his party into giving up that precious nonsense-God rest the man.It must indeed sicken the extremists like yourself maybe?

Me an extremist, surprise you should say that to me given my name ?

Originally Posted by Paddyc

No,

I'm merely pointing out that this massive republican conspiracy to control all fora only existed in the head of the likes of Harris and Cruise O'Brien. The problem was that anyone (not necessarily a physical force republican) who didn't go along with their distorted media narrative was sidelined. This is a problem not because IRA propaganda didn't get publicity, but because our understanding of the situtation was seriously lessened by a deliberate policy of ignoring opinions the powers that be didn't agree with.

I'm not complaining because An Phoblacht wasn't included in "What it says in the Papers" every morning. I'm complaining that a distorted analysis of the problem was foisted on us.

I don't know when you went to school but when I was a child in the 70's and 80's "that cliched auld tripe" was not being thought so I don't know where you're getting your 90 years from.

Your basic point seems to be that if the facts don't assist the intended outcome, the facts must be ignored. I would respectfully suggest that that is not a very useful way to deal with things.

Paddy, first of all I find it hard to sympathize with physical-force republicans who complain that they weren't given a fair shake in the media. The risk to democracy was simply too great to allow these fascists airtime to indoctrinate young people. If that meant some collateral damage to freedom of speech then so be it. Sometimes you have to take a hit on those luxuries when fascists are at work.

This discussion does seem to have been sidetracked into a debate on how Harris and co are distorting history. We all have our views on this. However, Salter and Drapers interviews are independent of Harris, Gregg or any of your other revisionist bugbears. If you were to edit the programme down to Salter and Drapers interviews with no narration, their accounts would be no less powerful. I think some of you guys are really struggling with this.

So let me ask this question, what did you guys think of Salter and Drapers interviews? Not the programme, just their interviews.

Originally Posted by Eoin Coir

Me an extremist, surprise you should say that to me given my name ?

You are an Orangeman from the border counties.

Originally Posted by Schomberg

Yeah, no one believes that. I'm a West Cork Protestant with family going back in that area for centuries and I've never heard that. I'm sure the rebels (want to) believe it, but not a single Prod would even consider it. You have to remember, many of the same families who lived through it, still live there to this day. Catholic and Protestant. You'd be surprised what people talk about when they're comfortable. Too bad I was born too late to hear stuff from "the horses mouth" so to speak, the older generation that would have grown up at that time. Harris is really the kiss to death to a lot of this stuff. It's a sensitive subject, for both sides. The rebels get all defensive and the prods get all nervous that someone is stirring the pot in these little rural villages and towns where they're a small minority. How can a proper, rational, informed and reasoned debate ever develop in those sorts of circumstances?

I'm off to bed.

It's 2012. The War of Independence was 90+ years ago yet you are still on about 'rebels'. You are deluded as are the likes of William Lee and Toland who liked your post.

Originally Posted by Eoin Coir

That comes from the grassy knoll school of delusion, the same that said Collins was shot by one of his own, when it was actually known who killed him from the anti treaty side.

I agree,

We can't pin every bad thing that ever happended on British Intelligence!