Register to Comment
Page 9 of 9 FirstFirst ... 789
Results 81 to 89 of 89
Like Tree61Likes
  1. #81
    Malcolm Redfellow Malcolm Redfellow is offline
    Malcolm Redfellow's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    2,903
    Twitter
    @

    Quote Originally Posted by Catalpast View Post
    I was at at Lansdowne Road, Saturday March 7, 1964: Ireland lost to Wales 6-15. The real "lift" that afternoon was the half-time announcement: Arkle took five lengths out of Mill House for the Gold Cup.

    Yes I can remember that - there with my Dad!
    My recollection is an unmemorable game, and some drizzle. But that might be a reflection from the scoreline.

    But — hey! — some really meaty posting going on here.

    A wee bit off-the-main-line, what about a moment's reflection on Richard fitzGilbert, lord of Strigoil, a.k.a. "Strongbow"? Why did Diarmait Mac Murchada approach him in particular?

    Oh, and by the way, as I read it, the assumption that Mac Murchada was radically breaching Irish laws of succession goes all the way back to Eoin MacNeill in 1919 (see Studies, 8, pages 367-82 and 640-653). What MacNeill did there was to conflate two very different "legal" prescriptions. The legal "family" was the four-generations of the derbfine — and that, for sure, was the basis of land tenure. So, too, the succession to the kingship was apparently limited to the derbfine. But land is divisible: the office of kingship isn't. Look carefully at the academic debate: G.H.Orpen, whom MacNeill was countering, and — more recently — Donnchadh Ó Corráin, who applied wider anthropology; and the issue is much more debatable — all the way down to Immo Warntjes. In particular Ó Corráin looked at the succession of the Uí Chennselaig dynasty of Leinster; and showed that a fifth of successors did not belong to the derbfine — indeed only 3% of successors could trace themselves back four generations.

    A second consideration: in 1126 Toirdelbach Ua Conchobair of Connacht had tried to instal his son, Conchobar, as king of Leinster. Would a blow-in from the West be more acceptable than a Welsh-Norman from over the water?

    As for the status of Aífe (and any assumption there was an Irish version of Salic Law), once more I can point to a couple of key articles by Ó Corráin. He looks to the Banshenchas of 1147, which details the parentage and marriages of élite women, and thus underwrites their significance. By the time the Normans put in their appearance, there is ample evidence of women possessing land and disposable wealth in their own rights.

    But, back to Strongbow. He wasn't Diarmait Mac Murchada's first resort: that was Henri II himself — but Henri was fully engaged in French affairs, so shrugged his shoulders and let the Norman-Welsh get on with it.

    Focus on Richard fitzGilbert, lord of Strigoil, Strongbow. Note that he is not earl of Pembroke, which he had been witnessing the treaty between Stephen and Henri Plantagenet, Duke of Normandy, in 1153. I've just spent some minutes fruitlessly rootling for my copy of Warren on Henry II: he (I recall) lists several earldoms created by Stephen or Matilda which King Henri didn't recognise. Reason: Strongbow had backed Stephen; and Pembroke was kept as a royal fiefdom throughout Henri's kingship (even William Marshal didn't get the earldom when he married Strongbow's daughter, Isabella — he had to wait until he prised it out of King John in 1199) .

    Then again there are the fiefdoms of Orbec and Bienfalte, lost to Strongbow's family when they were conferred by Henri, Duke of Normandy, on Robert de Montfort.

    In 1164 Strongbow had a strong claim for the lands of Walter, Earl Giffard, who died without male issue. The Giffard lands remained with Henri until his death.

    Giraldus Cambrensis' other book on Ireland, the Expugnatio Hibernica, is very telling. When Strongbow made his contract with Diarmait Mac Murchada:
    he had a great name, rather than great prospects, ancestral prestige rather than ability: he had succeeded to a name rather than possessions.
    One last teaser: was Strongbow on his uppers? When in 1166-67 Diarmait was recruiting mercenaries one of his contracts was Robert fitz Harding of Bristol. Bristol is on the direct line from Strongbow's HQ at Chepstow — but the city would gain greatly from a Norman presence in Dublin. fitz Harding was a money-lender (and Strongbow appears as a debt on the books of others, including Aaron of Lincoln) , and made a specialism of buying up the estates of others who had backed the wrong horse (i.e. Stephen, now that King Henri fitz Empress was top dog) in the anarchy. Robert fitz Harding's second son had already acquired one of the Strigoil manors.
    Sign in or Register Now to reply

  2. #82
    Catalpast Catalpast is offline
    Catalpast's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    17,161

    Quote Originally Posted by Malcolm Redfellow View Post
    My recollection is an unmemorable game, and some drizzle. But that might be a reflection from the scoreline.

    But — hey! — some really meaty posting going on here.

    A wee bit off-the-main-line, what about a moment's reflection on Richard fitzGilbert, lord of Strigoil, a.k.a. "Strongbow"? Why did Diarmait Mac Murchada approach him in particular?

    Oh, and by the way, as I read it, the assumption that Mac Murchada was radically breaching Irish laws of succession goes all the way back to Eoin MacNeill in 1919 (see Studies, 8, pages 367-82 and 640-653). What MacNeill did there was to conflate two very different "legal" prescriptions. The legal "family" was the four-generations of the derbfine — and that, for sure, was the basis of land tenure. So, too, the succession to the kingship was apparently limited to the derbfine. But land is divisible: the office of kingship isn't. Look carefully at the academic debate: G.H.Orpen, whom MacNeill was countering, and — more recently — Donnchadh Ó Corráin, who applied wider anthropology; and the issue is much more debatable — all the way down to Immo Warntjes. In particular Ó Corráin looked at the succession of the Uí Chennselaig dynasty of Leinster; and showed that a fifth of successors did not belong to the derbfine — indeed only 3% of successors could trace themselves back four generations.

    A second consideration: in 1126 Toirdelbach Ua Conchobair of Connacht had tried to instal his son, Conchobar, as king of Leinster. Would a blow-in from the West be more acceptable than a Welsh-Norman from over the water?

    As for the status of Aífe (and any assumption there was an Irish version of Salic Law), once more I can point to a couple of key articles by Ó Corráin. He looks to the Banshenchas of 1147, which details the parentage and marriages of élite women, and thus underwrites their significance. By the time the Normans put in their appearance, there is ample evidence of women possessing land and disposable wealth in their own rights.

    But, back to Strongbow. He wasn't Diarmait Mac Murchada's first resort: that was Henri II himself — but Henri was fully engaged in French affairs, so shrugged his shoulders and let the Norman-Welsh get on with it.

    Focus on Richard fitzGilbert, lord of Strigoil, Strongbow. Note that he is not earl of Pembroke, which he had been witnessing the treaty between Stephen and Henri Plantagenet, Duke of Normandy, in 1153. I've just spent some minutes fruitlessly rootling for my copy of Warren on Henry II: he (I recall) lists several earldoms created by Stephen or Matilda which King Henri didn't recognise. Reason: Strongbow had backed Stephen; and Pembroke was kept as a royal fiefdom throughout Henri's kingship (even William Marshal didn't get the earldom when he married Strongbow's daughter, Isabella — he had to wait until he prised it out of King John in 1199) .

    Then again there are the fiefdoms of Orbec and Bienfalte, lost to Strongbow's family when they were conferred by Henri, Duke of Normandy, on Robert de Montfort.

    In 1164 Strongbow had a strong claim for the lands of Walter, Earl Giffard, who died without male issue. The Giffard lands remained with Henri until his death.

    Giraldus Cambrensis' other book on Ireland, the Expugnatio Hibernica, is very telling. When Strongbow made his contract with Diarmait Mac Murchada:


    One last teaser: was Strongbow on his uppers? When in 1166-67 Diarmait was recruiting mercenaries one of his contracts was Robert fitz Harding of Bristol. Bristol is on the direct line from Strongbow's HQ at Chepstow — but the city would gain greatly from a Norman presence in Dublin. fitz Harding was a money-lender (and Strongbow appears as a debt on the books of others, including Aaron of Lincoln) , and made a specialism of buying up the estates of others who had backed the wrong horse (i.e. Stephen, now that King Henri fitz Empress was top dog) in the anarchy. Robert fitz Harding's second son had already acquired one of the Strigoil manors.

    [/B] fitz Harding was a money-lender (and Strongbow appears as a debt on the books of others, including Aaron of Lincoln) , and made a specialism of buying up the estates of others who had backed the wrong horse (i.e. Stephen, now that King Henri fitz Empress was top dog) in the anarchy. Robert fitz Harding's second son had already acquired one of the Strigoil manors.

    Aaron of Lincoln (born at Lincoln, England, about 1125, died 1186) was an English Jewish financier. He is believed to have been the wealthiest man in Norman England;

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aaron_of_Lincoln

    Oh dear Malcolm - have you any idea what you have done?
    Sign in or Register Now to reply

  3. #83
    Cellachán Chaisil Cellachán Chaisil is offline

    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    8,762

    Quote Originally Posted by Malcolm Redfellow View Post

    A second consideration: in 1126 Toirdelbach Ua Conchobair of Connacht had tried to instal his son, Conchobar, as king of Leinster. Would a blow-in from the West be more acceptable than a Welsh-Norman from over the water?
    The same Conchobhar was later killed by the Meathmen when his father tried the same trick, so I'm going to say no. But it shows that kings were certainly trying to stretch the limits of their power. Mac Murchada was not the first, it's just his change was more lasting.

    As for the status of Aífe (and any assumption there was an Irish version of Salic Law), once more I can point to a couple of key articles by Ó Corráin. He looks to the Banshenchas of 1147, which details the parentage and marriages of élite women, and thus underwrites their significance. By the time the Normans put in their appearance, there is ample evidence of women possessing land and disposable wealth in their own rights.
    I don't think there was ever any mention of women not being able to hold land or disposable wealth. They were excluded from the fintiu but there were other forms of inheritance to which they had access. Brehon laws also refer to a bancomarba i.e. a female heir, who inherits when her father has no other relatives to leave property to. She seems also to have been the foundation of the lanamnas bentinchair, marriages in which the woman brings most of the marriage property and enjoyed most of the rights within the relationship.
    Last edited by Cellachán Chaisil; 20th March 2017 at 10:15 PM.
    Sign in or Register Now to reply

  4. #84
    Malcolm Redfellow Malcolm Redfellow is offline
    Malcolm Redfellow's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    2,903
    Twitter
    @

    Oh dear Malcolm - have you any idea what you have done?
    Yes; sorry. I shouldn't have revealed the historical basis for Walter Scott's ''Abraham of York" in Ivanhoe.

    That was your concern, wasn't it?
    Sign in or Register Now to reply

  5. #85
    Catalpast Catalpast is offline
    Catalpast's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    17,161

    Quote Originally Posted by Malcolm Redfellow View Post
    Yes; sorry. I shouldn't have revealed the historical basis for Walter Scott's ''Abraham of York" in Ivanhoe.

    That was your concern, wasn't it?
    Bang on the button as usual Malcolm!

    Er what?
    Sign in or Register Now to reply

  6. #86
    Dasayev Dasayev is offline
    Dasayev's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    3,824

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaplan View Post
    Sounds like godless communism.
    It's funny. Both Communists and Libertarians hold up Gaelic Ireland as some kind of historical model.
    Sign in or Register Now to reply

  7. #87
    diaspora-mick diaspora-mick is offline
    diaspora-mick's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    4,449

    Quote Originally Posted by Malcolm Redfellow View Post
    Yes; sorry. I shouldn't have revealed the historical basis for Walter Scott's ''Abraham of York" in Ivanhoe.

    That was your concern, wasn't it?
    Just wait until Rashers appears and then you'll know all about it ... you divil ....
    Sign in or Register Now to reply

  8. #88
    Stentor Stentor is offline
    Stentor's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    2,038

    Quote Originally Posted by Talk Back View Post
    And the south of Ireland still pay ground rents to England for the burial ground of the 1916 Leaders in Arbour Hill. Irish people put up with shame, humiliation and disgrace well - it helps when you have no real pride as a people or patriotism for Ireland.
    Many Laws. Little Justice. This is the way of the world.
    Sign in or Register Now to reply

  9. #89
    Malcolm Redfellow Malcolm Redfellow is offline
    Malcolm Redfellow's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    2,903
    Twitter
    @

    Quote Originally Posted by Talk Back View Post
    And the south of Ireland still pay ground rents to England for the burial ground of the 1916 Leaders in Arbour Hill. Irish people put up with shame, humiliation and disgrace well - it helps when you have no real pride as a people or patriotism for Ireland.
    It's called globalisation. Either that, or smother ourselves in our right little, tight little bit of a small island.

    By the same token, in 2004 Real Estate Opportunities (an Irish-based company) bought Battersea Power Station for £400 million. For reasons not unconnected to the demise of the Celtic Tiger (an extinct species), this Heritage-at-Risk has been decaying until the Malaysians took over. London weeps.

    Sign in or Register Now to reply

Page 9 of 9 FirstFirst ... 789
Sign in to CommentRegister to Comment