Well done, Catalpa: another great post. Sorry to hear of the health problem.
But — to the topic at hand.
In TCD, once upon a time, O my Best Beloved, there were two professors, and they ate ill-prepared undergraduates alive. Legend held these two professors (Otway-Ruthven and Lydon) were daggers-drawn over (e.g.) King John. Therefore, one always looked first at the top of the exam paper to see who would be marking the answers.
On one issue (as far as I recall) they concurred: they firmly linked Laudabiliter to the Henrician invasion. So I never questioned the connection until recently.
Then, in Strand Books, for a whole $9.95, I acquired a copy of Marie Therese Flanagan's Irish Society, Anglo-Irish Settlers, Angevin Kingship — and she does, in the first few pages, question just that:
I'm prepared to go with Flanagan here (and she goes into much greater depth than the above gobbet). In which case Cardinal Paparo would be the villain of the Canterbury peace — not least because the outcome of the Synod of Kells had implications for English control of Welsh sees. So what happened after 1167 could be little more than a continuation of the power grab in Wales.In 1933 JF O'Doherty cautiously questioned this assumption, querying why Henry took so long to implement a plan he had conceived allegedly in 1155, and pointing out that Henry's response to Diarmait Mac Murchada's appeal for help in 1166-7 was not very enthusiastic. O'Doherty postulated that the moving force behind the Council of Winchester in 1155 and the procure of Laudabiliter was not Henry II but the see of Canterbury, and that Canterbury's involvement arose from its links with the Irish Church. Canterbury had consecrated bishops for a number of sees from the eleventh century, but this practice was ended by the establishment of an independent diocesan structure for the Irish Church, which received papal recognition at the Synod of Kells in 1152. The obtainment of the bull Laudabiliter, suggested O'Doherty, represented Canterbury's reaction to the Synod of Kells; and he further argued that when Henry II did intervene in Ireland in 1171 it was not to realize an ambition to conquer Ireland which he had entertained since 1155, but because he felt obliged to exercise restraint over those of his subjects who had already gone there in response to Diarmait Mac Murchada's request for military aid.
I'm marking up this thread as "good stuff".
Last edited by Malcolm Redfellow; 6th March 2017 at 07:16 PM. Reason: Blasted auto-spell correction (and typos)
Yes I think it more than likely that ecclesiastical rivalry was an important factor in all that followed
- Henry II as you know had to look busy post the Murder of his troublesome priest Thomas a Beckett in Canterbury Cathedral
- an expedition to Ireland to impose the rules of the English Church
- must have gained him Brownie points with the Clergy back home
BTW My health is fine thanks!
"The dioceses are based on old gaelic divisions whereas the counties are not."
No I think you will find that the vast majority of Irish counties also reflect the ancient territorial divisions of the various Irish clans e.g. Cavan being the ancient patrimony of East Briefne controlled by the O'Reillys, Leitrim being West Breifne owned by the O'Rourkes etc etc.
There are a tiny number of exceptions to this I admit, but just a few, e.g. the reasoning behind the division between Westmeath and Meath is hard to figure out sometimes although I think they could have been placing the Plunkett territories in the Meath part.
Anyway good work Catalpa obviously but did anybody hear the story that all Irish dioceses are supposed to border the sea? I am not sure its entirely correct but if you look at a map it is kind of curious that way and it would be interesting to speculate why they did it like that?
They are equivalent to the English shires.
They sent in a sherriff to keep the natives in check.
Westmeath was set up by Henry viii. I assume he thought the natives there were getting a bit uppity and needed a sherriff all of their own.
Gaelic games have teams that represent counties set up by the colonial power.
But they do not have teams for counties set up by the native government.
There is no Gaelic team for Fingal, Dun Laoire, South Dublin or Dublin City.