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  1. #11
    Toland Toland is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by derryman View Post
    Arthur Guiness???
    Jim Jameson
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  2. #12
    ergo2 ergo2 is offline

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    Very interesting Catalpa.

    Tradition in Mayo is that St Patrick consecreted a bishop at Aughagower, which they retained up to one of these Councils.

    Further there was a dispute years later between Armagh and Tuam re ownership of church land in Aughagower - I cant recall the details but will check

    Aughagower lies between Ballintubber Abbey and Croagh Patrick - it is one of the stops on Togher Phadraig, the pilgrim route in ancient times to Croagh Patrick

    Keep it going Catalpa - great reading.
    Last edited by ergo2; 6th March 2012 at 05:51 PM.
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  3. #13
    shiel shiel is offline

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    It is typical of this forum that any thread that has a bit of ancient history in it that cannot be used in some present day row is dropped.

    I find this interesting.

    I was trying to name the dioceses the other day and ran out at 27.

    starting at the north east I got

    Down and Connor
    Armagh
    Kilmore
    Clogher
    Derry
    Raphoe
    Dromore
    Elphin
    Killalla
    Achonry
    Tuam
    Galway
    Clonfert
    Ardagh and Clonmacnoise
    Meath
    Dublin
    Kildare and Leighlin
    Ossory
    Ferns
    Waterford and Lismore
    Cloyne
    Cashel
    Cork
    Killalloe
    Limerick
    Ardfert
    Kerry

    I cannot remember any more.
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  4. #14
    Riadach Riadach is offline

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    Of course the dioceses were based on the political structures at the time, with each strong subkingdom being allotted one. Hence Killaloe corresponds to Ó Briain power in the 12th century, and Raphoe to Cinel Conaill power, (minus the peninsula of Inishowen, which it later acquired). It is further asserted by Cotter in his work that the post-Norman baronies and cantreds reflect the native trícha cét system, which would mean we can have a fairly comprehensive map of pre-Norman political structures.
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  5. #15
    shiel shiel is offline

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    Actually looked it up and there is only 26. Ardfert is seemingly not a dioceses.
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  6. #16
    Riadach Riadach is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by shiel View Post
    Actually looked it up and there is only 26. Ardfert is seemingly not a dioceses.
    It definitely was at some stage though.
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  7. #17
    shiel shiel is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riadach View Post
    Of course the dioceses were based on the political structures at the time, with each strong subkingdom being allotted one. Hence Killaloe corresponds to Ó Briain power in the 12th century, and Raphoe to Cinel Conaill power, (minus the peninsula of Inishowen, which it later acquired). It is further asserted by Cotter in his work that the post-Norman baronies and cantreds reflect the native trícha cét system, which would mean we can have a fairly comprehensive map of pre-Norman political structures.
    That is right. The dioceses are based on old gaelic divisions whereas the counties are not.

    Ironic that we identify with the colonially imposed counties and knock lumps out of one another on the playing field because of that identity.

    There is a life and death struggle between Waterford city and south Kilkenny going on for years about an area of land there.
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  8. #18
    Riadach Riadach is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by shiel View Post
    That is right. The dioceses are based on old gaelic divisions whereas the counties are not.

    Ironic that we identify with the colonially imposed counties and knock lumps out of one another on the playing field because of that identity.

    There is a life and death struggle between Waterford city and south Kilkenny going on for years about an area of land there.
    Not to mention if Clare and Limerick had militias, there'd nearly be a war.
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  9. #19
    shiel shiel is offline

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    The Synods of Clanbreasil and Kells reformed the Irish church and brought it into line with Rome long before Pope Adrian iv gave Henry ii permission to supposedly do the same thing.

    It highlights the fact that Henry was coming in for reasons of realpolitik not concern for reform of the church.

    He was afraid that the Normans, who had taken large parts of the country, would set up a rival kingdom in Ireland. He became Lord of Ireland through the treaty of Windsor. The rest is history.
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  10. #20
    Catalpast Catalpast is online now
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    Just updating this one with a bit more info:

    6 March 1152: The Synod of Kells/Ceannas Mór was concluded on this day. This great gathering of the churchmen of Ireland was presided over by the Papal Legate Cardinal Paparoni, sent by Pope Eugene III to conduct the proceedings. On his first attempt to get to Ireland, in 1150, Paparo was refused a safe conduct through England by King Stephen unless he pledged himself to do nothing in Ireland that would injure England’s interests there. The cardinal refused and returned indignantly to Rome.

    It would seem that this was an attempt by Stephen to prevent Paparo from bringing papal confirmation for an arrangement in Ireland that would see Canterbury’s [the seat of the Church of England] claims in Ireland finally extinguished. The Irish though sent a fresh delegation to Rome and Paperoni was induced to return but this time via Scotland under the protection of King David.

    He was accompanied by Gilla Crist Ua Connairche, first abbot of Mellifont, now bishop of Lismore and permanent papal legate in Ireland (he had been a fellow monk with the current pope, Eugenius III, at Clairvaux), who may have been one of the delegation who had been sent to Rome. The cardinal arrived in Ireland at some time in October of 1151. Apart from a week he spent in Armagh, very little is known about his activities before the convening of the synod in the following March; approximately four months of his time is, therefore, unaccounted for. It is probable that he visited church leaders and lay magnates in preparation for the synod; perhaps he needed to check that the general agreement claimed for the new diocesan arrangement existed.

    The purpose of the Synod was to continue the Reform of the Irish Church begun at the Synod of Rathbrassill that was held in 1111 AD. These changes followed closely the reforms that were underway on the Continent. In Ireland the most visible aspect was the reorganisation of the Church along clearly set out strict Diocesan lines with a Bishop or Archbishop having a defined territory of jurisdiction.

    This synod approved the consecration of four archbishops, where before there had been two. Ireland was divided into thirty-six sees, and four metropolitan sees: Armagh, Cashel, Tuam, and Dublin. Armagh was granted Primacy. The diocese of Dublin, ruled by the Ostmen (Danes), seceded from Canterbury and was united with Glendalough.

    Turlough O'Connor/Tairrdelbach Ua Conchobair, the High King of Ireland, approved the decrees, and the pallia (cloaks of office) were conferred by the Papal Legate Cardinal Giovanni Paparoni. This territorial structure of ecclesiastical governance has continued down to the present day and in its basic form is the template still used by both the Catholic and Anglican Churches in Ireland.


    There has been some confusion as to the actual location of this synod. The Annals of the Four Masters say Drogheda, but the 17th Century Historian Geoffrey Keating, quoting an old book that is no longer extant, gave Kells as the location. It is probable that there were two separate sessions of this synod. The first was held at Kells and concluded by March 6; it then reconvened at Mellifont, near Drogheda, around Sunday, March 9, and concluded on Palm Sunday (March 23). It is not known how the business of the synod was divided between the two sessions, but it is likely that episcopal consecrations took place later at Mellifont and that the four pallia were then distributed to the archbishops at the last sitting on Palm Sunday.
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