The Movement for a Socialist Republic.

[cathalbrugha]

DAVID THORNLEY'S DEATH is as great a loss as Seamus Costello's murder.

Of course this has generally been ignored. The obituaries commemmorate David as Don and television pundit. His terminal sickness is ascribed to disilluusion with the dirty world of politics. His eventual radicalism is considered to have been an abheration caused by this illlness.

In fact, in his last Irish Times article, David portrayed himself accurately as Hamlet. Like Hamlet he had two conflicting personae: the radical intellecctual and the academic establishmentarian. To his credit, he ended by supporting the first against the second. In doing so, he destroyed himself.

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With 2016 only four years away,a debate for a Socialist Republic is clearly necessary.With the Labour Party so far away from the ideals of Connolly,Sinn Féin not making much headway on re-unification,the 'left' more fractured than ever,perhaps a look back into the roots of the 'splits' is necessary.David Thornley was a controversial figure,but he believed in the unity of the left.He believed it was the only way to acheive re-unification,and tried to the best of his abilitys to advocate the politics of James Connolly as the only way forward for the working class.Or as Connolly himself said-'Through Socialism alone can the salvation of Ireland come'.Perhaps lessons can be learned from the journey of the Socialist Labour Party.

[Mr Aphorisms]

Honestly, be really honest, can you see in the future the heads of the ULA and Republican Sinn Fein, for example, coming together for a socialist Ireland? I am not even sure if the ULA are socialist. They don't promote socialism, at all. They promote progressive policies, at best. The same with Sinn Fein. It's one thing calling yourself socialist but to actually lay out a plan to bring it about is another thing.

I am not a socialist, but I would love to see a real left alternative, but they just haven't got the leadership to talk about socialism or the representatives to catch the Workers' ear. Marching up and down O'Connell Street and standing outside the Merrion Hotel screaming "IMF GET THEM OUT! WE KNOW WHAT YOU'RE ALL ABOUT" is all cool and trendy, but what does it achieve?

Eirigi have a very good speaker in Brian Leeson. I don't agree with everything he says, obviously, but he is pretty impressive and clearly has a passion for socialism and republicanism. Other than that, no one springs to mind. A lot of decent people in the ULA, but none that could honestly mount a serious challenge to the establishment, in my opinion.

Leaving all of that aside, the idea of the workers controlling the means of production is entirely insane and incapable of working, especially Irish workers.

[cathalbrugha]

Honestly, be really honest, can you see in the future the heads of the ULA and Republican Sinn Fein, for example, coming together for a socialist Ireland? I am not even sure if the ULA are socialist. They don't promote socialism, at all. They promote progressive policies, at best. The same with Sinn Fein. It's one thing calling yourself socialist but to actually lay out a plan to bring it about is another thing.

I am not a socialist, but I would love to see a real left alternative, but they just haven't got the leadership to talk about socialism or the representatives to catch the Workers' ear. Marching up and down O'Connell Street and standing outside the Merrion Hotel screaming "IMF GET THEM OUT! WE KNOW WHAT YOU'RE ALL ABOUT" is all cool and trendy, but what does it achieve?

Eirigi have a very good speaker in Brian Leeson. I don't agree with everything he says, obviously, but he is pretty impressive and clearly has a passion for socialism and republicanism. Other than that, no one springs to mind. A lot of decent people in the ULA, but none that could honestly mount a serious challenge to the establishment, in my opinion.

Leaving all of that aside, the idea of the workers controlling the means of production is entirely insane and incapable of working, especially Irish workers.

I think honestly that Éirigi are the party of the future.I think they have a lot of great activists,who haven't come from the 'darkside' so to speak.I actually have a lot of time for some members of the ULA and Sinn Féin.But what struck me as different about Éirigi was their ability to listen,to take criticism,something which is lacking with the others.Most importantly,their members are young,and they have a bright future ahead of them,imo.Brian Leeson,Louise Minihan,Dathaí MacAnMháistair,Padraic MacCoitéir would get my vote if they stand in the elections.I know it's not all about elections,but they need to get their message out there.They had another great candidate in Mark Ward,but i'm not sure if he's still with them.The IRSP were also impressive in the six-county elections.

I've always admired the Éire Nua politics of Republican Sinn Féin,but i think they let themselves down with the 'armed struggle' and by not contesting elections.

I think the others have a number of good young people as well.

But i'd agree with you regarding 'marches' and not putting forward their proposals and policys.

[Mr Aphorisms]

I think honestly that Éirigi are the party of the future.I think they have a lot of great activists,who haven't come from the 'darkside' so to speak.I actually have a lot of time for some members of the ULA and Sinn Féin.But what struck me as different about Éirigi was their ability to listen,to take criticism,something which is lacking with the others.Most importantly,their members are young,and they have a bright future ahead of them,imo.Brian Leeson,Louise Minihan,Dathaí MacAnMháistair,Padraic MacCoitéir would get my vote if they stand in the elections.I know it's not all about elections,but they need to get their message out there.They had another great candidate in Mark Ward,but i'm not sure if he's still with them.The IRSP were also impressive in the six-county elections.

I've always admired the Éire Nua politics of Republican Sinn Féin,but i think they let themselves down with the 'armed struggle' and by not contesting elections.

I think the others have a number of good young people as well.

But i'd agree with you regarding 'marches' and not putting forward their proposals and policys.

I think honestly that Éirigi are the party of the future.I think they have a lot of great activists,who haven't come from the 'darkside' so to speak.

Unfortunately, they attract gob************************es at their protests, who know little about Eirigi, but who are just out for trouble. It's a shame that these elements are often branded as the archetypal Eirigi supporter.

But what struck me as different about Éirigi was their ability to listen,to take criticism,something which is lacking with the others.

I am not sure about any of those because I haven't seen them in debates or anything. I've watched a few of their speeches online and was impressed. The only time I can think of where the above has been on view was when Leeson was on RTE about the queen and did a good job up against a free stater. As you said, he listened and took the criticism.

Brian Leeson,Louise Minihan

I know these two more than the others you mentioned. But they're very impressive. Eirigi really caught my attention during the queen visit and Minihan gave an excellent speech in the county council opposing the Windsor visit. Leeson did the same at an Eirigi meeting, but he had to throw in a few over exaggerations about how the people behind the queen "want a return to the days of the Lockout, where the bosses could do what they want." Normally though, the socialism aside, I am impressed.

Minihan is a Dub through and through and it's great to see a youngone like her with such a passion for politics and her country.

I know it's not all about elections,but they need to get their message out there.

I think what alienates a few people joining them or attending meetings is the whole exclusive "Socialist Republican." I know landlords and many middle class who are Republicans and would defend the Provo's, but are put off by the vehement socialism of the main Republican parties.

Fair enough, you shouldn't change your policies, but I am not sure if a progressive pro-free market guy came in or someone who hates capitalism and socialism and stated his position if he would be welcomed. The problem with the left is that if anyone disagrees - left wing or right wing - they've no time for them.

But i'd agree with you regarding 'marches' and not putting forward their proposals and policys.

It would be interesting to see Eirigi on Vinny Browne for a night or something similar.

A good OP, but for me, little chance of any unification of the left in this country, never mind the 6 counties. Who else have we left out? The 32 country Socialist movement? Real Sinn Fein? Far too many.

[-NW2-]

To be fair, I dont think the IRSP or Eirgi are trying to attract 'landlords' or 'middle class Republicans' so they wont be too bothered that their socialism turns them off. Both groups want a Workers Republic.

[Mr Aphorisms]

To be fair, I dont think the IRSP or Eirgi are trying to attract 'landlords' or 'middle class Republicans' so they wont be too bothered that their socialism turns them off. Both groups want a Workers Republic.

I should have clarified: What I mean't by the landlord comment was about Republicanism.

Forget the socialism for a second. If you honestly think you're going to bring about a united Ireland in this country without the middle class or right wingers you might as well staple the GFA to your head. The proletariat have as much knowledge of interest in a Irish history and a united Ireland as my frying pan. Unless you think wrecking the place when the orange order comes down is the acme of republicanism.

[cathalbrugha]

Unfortunately, they attract gob************************es at their protests, who know little about Eirigi, but who are just out for trouble. It's a shame that these elements are often branded as the archetypal Eirigi supporter.

I am not sure about any of those because I haven't seen them in debates or anything. I've watched a few of their speeches online and was impressed. The only time I can think of where the above has been on view was when Leeson was on RTE about the queen and did a good job up against a free stater. As you said, he listened and took the criticism.

I know these two more than the others you mentioned. But they're very impressive. Eirigi really caught my attention during the queen visit and Minihan gave an excellent speech in the county council opposing the Windsor visit. Leeson did the same at an Eirigi meeting, but he had to throw in a few over exaggerations about how the people behind the queen "want a return to the days of the Lockout, where the bosses could do what they want." Normally though, the socialism aside, I am impressed.

Minihan is a Dub through and through and it's great to see a youngone like her with such a passion for politics and her country.

I think what alienates a few people joining them or attending meetings is the whole exclusive "Socialist Republican." I know landlords and many middle class who are Republicans and would defend the Provo's, but are put off by the vehement socialism of the main Republican parties.

Fair enough, you shouldn't change your policies, but I am not sure if a progressive pro-free market guy came in or someone who hates capitalism and socialism and stated his position if he would be welcomed. The problem with the left is that if anyone disagrees - left wing or right wing - they've no time for them.

It would be interesting to see Eirigi on Vinny Browne for a night or something similar.

A good OP, but for me, little chance of any unification of the left in this country, never mind the 6 counties. Who else have we left out? The 32 country Socialist movement? Real Sinn Fein? Far too many.

You'll get gob************************es everywhere(aren't you talking to one).Most of the ones i've seen seemed sound and down to earth.Perhaps a little 'youthful' at times.

In all fairness to 'Republican Sinn Féin' and the 32s they're stuck between a rock and a hard place.Personally i think it's a disgrace how Marian Price and people like Gerry McGeogh are being treated.Internment is what it is.Gerry McGeogh is in his 60s.He's an old man.He's locked up for something he done in the 1970s.He should be released immediately.I don't agree with his politics,but it's anti-democratic to say the least.All he done was stand for election.Marian Price should be released as well.That woman gave her life to the Republican Movement and deserves to be free.Hopefully Sinn Féin will start doing something on her behalf.I think all the partys should be calling for their release on humanitarian grounds.Even small gestures like emailing your local TD about it can make a small difference.That poor woman is in isolation in a males prison.She's no threat to anybody.

It would be good to see Éirigi on the vinny brown.It would make for a change and an interesting debate.

[cathalbrugha]

To be fair, I dont think the IRSP or Eirgi are trying to attract 'landlords' or 'middle class Republicans' so they wont be too bothered that their socialism turns them off. Both groups want a Workers Republic.

He actually has a point.Socialism should be for the benifit for as many people as possible.A 'Workers Republic' in an Irish context doesn't mean necessarily 'a dictatorship'.Who wants that?It would never work.

[Mr Aphorisms]

You'll get gob************************es everywhere(aren't you talking to one).Most of the ones i've seen seemed sound and down to earth.Perhaps a little 'youthful' at times.

In all fairness to 'Republican Sinn Féin' and the 32s they're stuck between a rock and a hard place.Personally i think it's a disgrace how Marian Price and people like Gerry McGeogh are being treated.Internment is what it is.Gerry McGeogh is in his 60s.He's an old man.He's locked up for something he done in the 1970s.He should be released immediately.I don't agree with his politics,but it's anti-democratic to say the least.All he done was stand for election.Marian Price should be released as well.That woman gave her life to the Republican Movement and deserves to be free.Hopefully Sinn Féin will start doing something on her behalf.I think all the partys should be calling for their release on humanitarian grounds.Even small gestures like emailing your local TD about it can make a small difference.That poor woman is in isolation in a males prison.She's no threat to anybody.

It would be good to see Éirigi on the vinny brown.It would make for a change and an interesting debate.

I remember he had the Communist party on a few years ago. Again, it wasn't really impressive and I have been to many protests and never saw a Communist Party banner there, at all. The Communist Party of Ireland are another defunct left wing party.

Take Noam Chomsky for example in America. Do you honestly think Bill Reilly would enter into a debate with the man? Of course not, he would be annihilated. The same for all of FOX and CNN, etc. We've seen how they have gone after Ron Paul in the states as well with aggression. Chomsky and Paul are a threat to the norm. Hence, they're either ignored, ridiculed for their policies without actually stating what's wrong with them, or they have their views and beliefs distorted.

The left are not seen as a threat at all in this country. I don't know how many times they've been on Vinny, the Frontline, Late Late, Week in Politics, etc. Yet they run around complaining that everyone is "out to get them" when nothing could be further from the truth. When Leo Varadakar is smiling because he knows you're out of your depth and talking bull, as he has many times when a ULA TD or rep is on Vinny it doesn't really say much for the left. Sinn Fein and the ULA are completely abysmal. I already started a thread about the ULA and why they should just come out and say what they really feel.

It seems they have a mindset of "we're never going to get into power, so why say our policies?"

[-NW2-]

I should have clarified: What I mean't by the landlord comment was about Republicanism.

Forget the socialism for a second. If you honestly think you're going to bring about a united Ireland in this country without the middle class or right wingers you might as well staple the GFA to your head. The proletariat have as much knowledge of interest in a Irish history and a united Ireland as my frying pan. Unless you think wrecking the place when the orange order comes down is the acme of republicanism.

But to groups like the IRSP, Eirigi, the 32's etc a socialist workers Republic is what they are aiming for. Not just reunification.

I think you do the Irish working class a bit of a diservice. A lot of people are very interested in Irish history, politics and a united Ireland. I dont think we should confuse working class people with criminals or anti social elements.

I do take your point though, there wont be any change in Ireland, or anywhere, unless the middle classes are on board.