The Movement for a Socialist Republic.

[SeamusNapoleon]

I should have clarified: What I mean't by the landlord comment was about Republicanism.

Forget the socialism for a second. If you honestly think you're going to bring about a united Ireland in this country without the middle class or right wingers you might as well staple the GFA to your head. The proletariat have as much knowledge of interest in a Irish history and a united Ireland as my frying pan. Unless you think wrecking the place when the orange order comes down is the acme of republicanism.

Narodnichestvo, my friend! Never despair

[Gracchus]

I haven't, no. But I have already said that I agree with a lot of what Marx said about surplus value, alienation, etc. Chomsky is probably someone I admire the most as a writer, so I have come accross him many times talking about socialis, Howard Zinn(RIP) is another guy who has influenced me and his book A peoples History of the United States is probably my favorite book of all time and wholly anti-capitalist and pro, dare I say, communist. They're just examples, but ya get my drift. From the most extreme to the most passive like Chomsky I disagree with all their solutions about how to bring it about and what way it would even work.

I've looked a lot at the main places where socialism has been implemented, particularly Russia and China. It was a disaster for the people. The left have then tried to disassociate itself from the USSR by claiming that it was not socialist, but how else are the means of production going to be taken over by workers? And the workers never end up taking them over. It's always a perpetual dictatorship of the party. Boycott's and elections are a fallacy and evolutionary socialists are deluded. And a good point you make is that socialists are still living in the 19th century.

I'd give a better response by the time has me and the insomnia is starting to wear off a bit now.

I must actually get reading some Chomsky, only really watched his videos online and that. Thanks for pointing out Howard Zinn, I'l have a look for that book too. Would really suggest Tressell book too you though, your probably too set in your libertarian views but still, may I dare say, a beautiful book.
Elections within the work place would benefit the workers a lot more then electing puppets to "run" the country. So yes the workers themselves would promote people to higher positions but only for a certain amount of time, if someone isn't running the sector well they will be back on the floor. Some people are better working with their brains then their hands, some are leaders of men/inspire productive work in others, some aren't. They would still be paid the same though as their all producing the same amount of wealth. If the sector was being run well and the workers were productive, they'd be rewarded with more paid holidays etc, to be spent in the local state own pub or museum or whatever they want.

Socialism for the 21st century is different from Socialism for the previous two, capitalism has developed, so too must Socialism.

[Gracchus]

Job hunting on the cards for me tomorrow. Need to get full time and save up for college in September(shouldn't have taken this year break thing). A day off today and a lie in for me. Enjoy the two hour kip.

Slept in, lazy useless college student comment here ha. You should of headed off for the year, maybe you could of got a job with Ron Paul and helped him get elected in the states. That year break thing would of been great 10 years ago, not so anymore though.

[cathalbrugha]

<Mod> Please do not post copyright protected material to the site. A link and a short extract are generally sufficient. </Mod>

I don't have a clue about 'copyrights',but i put the author of the articles name to the OP-It was at the bottom just above the +++++

It was only used as the basis for a discussion-One about Censorship.I'll get in touch with Davids brother if i get the chance and see can i have 'official' permission to use the article for a debate.

[Kommunist]

Hm, to post or not to post.

I'l be back in a day or two with something constructive.

[Mr Aphorisms]

I must actually get reading some Chomsky, only really watched his videos online and that. Thanks for pointing out Howard Zinn, I'l have a look for that book too. Would really suggest Tressell book too you though, your probably too set in your libertarian views but still, may I dare say, a beautiful book.
Elections within the work place would benefit the workers a lot more then electing puppets to "run" the country. So yes the workers themselves would promote people to higher positions but only for a certain amount of time, if someone isn't running the sector well they will be back on the floor. Some people are better working with their brains then their hands, some are leaders of men/inspire productive work in others, some aren't. They would still be paid the same though as their all producing the same amount of wealth. If the sector was being run well and the workers were productive, they'd be rewarded with more paid holidays etc, to be spent in the local state own pub or museum or whatever they want.

Socialism for the 21st century is different from Socialism for the previous two, capitalism has developed, so too must Socialism.

I must actually get reading some Chomsky, only really watched his videos online and that.

Hegemony or Survival
9/11
Rouge States
Failed States

They're all great books and should be easily attainable in any decent book shop. I'd recommend them.

hanks for pointing out Howard Zinn, I'l have a look for that book too.

I'd read it with the internet in front of you. There are no footnotes in it and it covers a lot of American history in only about 700 pages, but it really is brilliant. The chapter on Vietnam is very powerful.

Would really suggest Tressell book too you though, your probably too set in your libertarian views but still, may I dare say, a beautiful book.

I've been meaning to look into Libertarian Socialism for ages now, but always end it leaving it. According to Noam, Libertarianism has been hijacked. In its original meaning, it is a socialist movement.

Elections within the work place would benefit the workers a lot more then electing puppets to "run" the country. So yes the workers themselves would promote people to higher positions but only for a certain amount of time, if someone isn't running the sector well they will be back on the floor.

I just think that will never work. There are so many things to take into consideration: Hatred, jealously, envy, lazy workers, etc. Divisions are bound to be created and workers will vote for who they're friends with.

Example, I was in retail before and they use to have Employee of the Month. A tedious and sad award, but still, it was there. This chap, who shall remain unnamed, won it the first month I was in the job. Despite me and others constantly asking for overtimes and completing the work to a high standard, this tool won the award and he was the most inept, lazy and spiteful little ************************ I've ever come across. I can't underestimate how lazy this chap was. He actually got off on being a lil' donkey. He was also friends with the "team leader" or Fuhrer as I called her when I went mad and left the place and there were always fights and complaints about this fella between myself and others. When surplus value ends and fetishism for commodities, are these type of things going to end? I honestly don't believe that everything is a result of capitalism etc. We can talk about the environment and all, but Marx had no knowledge at all about environmental behavior and he knew nothing at all about the advancement humans would take in technology. Many jobs do not even require workers now as computers can do everything.

I know you could answer that with solutions, but that would be missing my point. There is always going to be division between workers and some are going to be motivated and some are not. With equal pay, if you see lazy fools hanging around whilst you're breaking a sweat, what can you do with the lazy guy? Tell him to get moving? What if he doesn't? See where I am going?

It's all well and fancy talking about surplus value and alienation, but where is the great alternative? Democracy in the workplace is an idea that is doomed to failure, for me. You need that manager who is going to set things right and incentives to work harder. Fair enough, what I just said was contradicted by an experience I had, but generally, the people who work the hardest, mostly get rewarded. Not everyone is equal and no, I don't believe a janitor deserves the same pay as a doctor. Both are imperative jobs in a hospital, but they are not the same thing, at all.

I'm for a safety net and a mixed economy, I'm Libertarian in terms of drugs being legalized, prostitution, etc.

Some people are better working with their brains then their hands, some are leaders of men/inspire productive work in others, some aren't.

Who decides all of this? What role has Mary on the tills got in all of this? Is she going to also run local government when she's most interested in the size of Jordan's breasts? Lovely and all as they are, but ya know what I mean.

They would still be paid the same though as their all producing the same amount of wealth.

And you think people are going to really put more work in for equal pay? Can I ask you why you think Primitive Communism came to an end?

If the sector was being run well and the workers were productive, they'd be rewarded with more paid holidays etc, to be spent in the local state own pub or museum or whatever they want.

That's a big if.

Socialism for the 21st century is different from Socialism for the previous two, capitalism has developed, so too must Socialism.

The basic core of socialism is: Worker control over production. On the evolutionary side, we have boycott's. On the revolutionary, a dictatorship of the proletariat. The first has never really been tried because it's silly and the latter has, but has always lead to a dictatorship of the party.

[Mr Aphorisms]

Narodnichestvo, my friend! Never despair

I'm not even joking, Seamus. But if I was to be a communist, I would have to be a Marxist-Leninist-Maoist. Ya need that Cultural Revolution as well. How can you end fetishism of commodities and cash if ya have 50 Cent on about how he has more women than you'll ever have and brags about all of his money? The same with all of the shows from America and England that promote women to be whores and men to be idiots.

Only a cultural revolution could guarantee the vanguard of the proletariat to fully accomplish a socialist society. I know, I know, I expect you to think or call me mad, but how else are you going to eradicate all of the vices of capitalism? Considering most working class people all aspire to be footballers or singers so they can get rich and women/men. And regarding this country, sure most socialist party members are dressed like vagabonds and their hair does be all over the place, not in terms of style, just ya know. The Irish socialist think not wearing an a suit and looking like a tramp(not in the Q Bar, Dandelions sense) is some sort of revolutionary act. It's a mess.

Yes, the Narodink's, "bourgeois whingers" as Lenin called those types.. But I was serious, we need middle class revolutionaries and leaders in this country. All of our best have been middle class. Tone, Parnell, O'Connell, Pearse, Collins, etc.

[John Biffo]

DAVID THORNLEY'S DEATH is as great a loss as Seamus Costello's murder.

Of course this has generally been ignored. The obituaries commemmorate David as Don and television pundit. His terminal sickness is ascribed to disilluusion with the dirty world of politics. His eventual radicalism is considered to have been an abheration caused by this illlness.

In fact, in his last Irish Times article, David portrayed himself accurately as Hamlet. Like Hamlet he had two conflicting personae: the radical intellecctual and the academic establishmentarian. To his credit, he ended by supporting the first against the second. In doing so, he destroyed himself.

<Mod> Please do not post copyright protected material to the site. A link and a short extract are generally sufficient. </Mod>

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++

With 2016 only four years away,a debate for a Socialist Republic is clearly necessary.With the Labour Party so far away from the ideals of Connolly,Sinn Féin not making much headway on re-unification,the 'left' more fractured than ever,perhaps a look back into the roots of the 'splits' is necessary.David Thornley was a controversial figure,but he believed in the unity of the left.He believed it was the only way to acheive re-unification,and tried to the best of his abilitys to advocate the politics of James Connolly as the only way forward for the working class.Or as Connolly himself said-'Through Socialism alone can the salvation of Ireland come'.Perhaps lessons can be learned from the journey of the Socialist Labour Party.

Still tilting at windmills eh?

Have a bit of cop on poster, no place for that set-up in a modern Ireland.

What you seem to want is a few hard workers and people with vision 'carrying' a bunch of luggards.

try some other tack, i would suggest.

[SeamusNapoleon]

I'm not even joking, Seamus.

I am not joking either. Despite the relative disaster of that Narodnik project, something like this is needed. You’re talking rightly of people’s ignorance of their past. Next year we are going to be looking at the centenary of the lockout; when a collection of half-starved, barely literate men stood up to a consortium of people who could put them on the breadline and beyond, legally.

They were led by people like James Connolly and Jim Larkin. Connolly, who scraped an existence from one day to the next. Compare these union leaders to Begg and O’Connor. Or compare the republicans of that period to the self-proclaimed republicans of today. Michael McDowell, for chrissakes. Compare the willingness to suffer, the willingness to sacrifice. The only thing McDowell ever sacrificed was his own son to the vultures of the media when he lost his seat.

The bar needs to be set high again and to do that people need to know that they can have higher expectations. Of course, I don’t mean materially.

But if I was to be a communist, I would have to be a Marxist-Leninist-Maoist. Ya need that Cultural Revolution as well.

This is why I’m glad you are not left-wing!

How can you end fetishism of commodities and cash if ya have 50 Cent on about how he has more women than you'll ever have and brags about all of his money? The same with all of the shows from America and England that promote women to be whores and men to be idiots.

Education can help that, not more bullets.
Cult of the Kalashnikov?

Only a cultural revolution could guarantee the vanguard of the proletariat to fully accomplish a socialist society. I know, I know, I expect you to think or call me mad, but how else are you going to eradicate all of the vices of capitalism? Considering most working class people all aspire to be footballers or singers so they can get rich and women/men.

With respect, most people where I am from would aspire to have a steady job and to raise a family. I’m not ‘idealising the peasantry’ or anything. Just from my own experience, people want a good life.

And regarding this country, sure most socialist party members are dressed like vagabonds and their hair does be all over the place, not in terms of style, just ya know. The Irish socialist think not wearing an a suit and looking like a tramp(not in the Q Bar, Dandelions sense) is some sort of revolutionary act. It's a mess.

They’re caught though, aren’t they? Wear a nice suit and you’re, well, a ‘suit’.

Yes, the Narodink's, "bourgeois whingers" as Lenin called those types.. But I was serious, we need middle class revolutionaries and leaders in this country. All of our best have been middle class. Tone, Parnell, O'Connell, Pearse, Collins, etc.

Lenin was a whinger himself.

I won’t agree entirely with your last sentence. All of these people were in a different age. The information age as we call this period since the internet exploded into popular use, well it’ll take the historians of three generations hence before it can really be evaluated.

Considering the thread title, some of our best thinkers in that regard – Connolly and Peadar O’Donnell – were working class.

[Mr Aphorisms]

I am not joking either. Despite the relative disaster of that Narodnik project, something like this is needed. You’re talking rightly of people’s ignorance of their past. Next year we are going to be looking at the centenary of the lockout; when a collection of half-starved, barely literate men stood up to a consortium of people who could put them on the breadline and beyond, legally.

They were led by people like James Connolly and Jim Larkin. Connolly, who scraped an existence from one day to the next. Compare these union leaders to Begg and O’Connor. Or compare the republicans of that period to the self-proclaimed republicans of today. Michael McDowell, for chrissakes. Compare the willingness to suffer, the willingness to sacrifice. The only thing McDowell ever sacrificed was his own son to the vultures of the media when he lost his seat.

The bar needs to be set high again and to do that people need to know that they can have higher expectations. Of course, I don’t mean materially.



This is why I’m glad you are not left-wing!



Education can help that, not more bullets.
Cult of the Kalashnikov?



With respect, most people where I am from would aspire to have a steady job and to raise a family. I’m not ‘idealising the peasantry’ or anything. Just from my own experience, people want a good life.


They’re caught though, aren’t they? Wear a nice suit and you’re, well, a ‘suit’.



Lenin was a whinger himself.

I won’t agree entirely with your last sentence. All of these people were in a different age. The information age as we call this period since the internet exploded into popular use, well it’ll take the historians of three generations hence before it can really be evaluated.

Considering the thread title, some of our best thinkers in that regard – Connolly and Peadar O’Donnell – were working class.

I am not joking either. Despite the relative disaster of that Narodnik project, something like this is needed. You’re talking rightly of people’s ignorance of their past. Next year we are going to be looking at the centenary of the lockout; when a collection of half-starved, barely literate men stood up to a consortium of people who could put them on the breadline and beyond, legally.

And despite the draconian conditions and a leader as brilliant as Connolly, how many people took part in such type events? How many did the Irish Citizens Army have? That was back then in a time which is the antithesis to what living standards are today.

A socialist revolution - revolutionary or evolutionary - is a wholly romantic idea and one I would not put too much faith in, especially with the leaders of the left and the divisions that exist between them.

The bar needs to be set high again and to do that people need to know that they can have higher expectations. Of course, I don’t mean materially.

I agree with you. I would love a true socialist party in this country to call it as it is. But they do not exist, at all. The only revolutionary thing the ULA have done is refuse to wear suits.

This is why I’m glad you are not left-wing!

Lol, ah now, Seamus. Let's not ruin our little honeymoon of lickin' each others arse.

Education can help that, not more bullets.

Define education. Do you mean that people will volunteer to educate themselves or go to lectures by socialists? Or do you mean physically reeducating them? I know you don't mean the latter, but the latter is the most plausible, hence, the Cultural Revolution would be needed.

Is the point about Rap Music, American drama, movies and reality TV shows not a fair one? I mean, you can't have everyone on an equal wage and then have people watching Jersey Shore for example, which promotes discrimination against women(and I hate feminism with a passion, but this show really does), if you don't have a 6 pack, you're a loser and should only hope for a life of masturbation and if you're not good lookin', you might as well be dead? Not to mention that not having money or being better than others.

Now, is the average Irish youngone in Q Bar going to ditch Jersey Shore for a lecture by, say Kieran Allen and work to build a socialist Ireland? I really do think not, not whilst the vices of capitalism are in her ear on her Ipod all day.

ith respect, most people where I am from would aspire to have a steady job and to raise a family. I’m not ‘idealising the peasantry’ or anything. Just from my own experience, people want a good life.

You know what I mean, Seamus. Obviously, everyone wants a steady job and all, but no one is interested in politics or the world, in this country or America. That's not on some high horse, it's just the truth. As I said earlier, I've talked to many engineers who have no idea, at all about the world or history - not even the rudiments of Hitler, Mao, Stalin, etc for example.

They’re caught though, aren’t they? Wear a nice suit and you’re, well, a ‘suit’.

They're not really Seamus. I don't look at Joe Higgins in his suit and think "jasus, a bourgeois goon if ever I saw one." I don't know if you've attended any meetings or anything for the left in this country, but they're always in a dire state. Now, I don't expect Browne Thomas when you're attending a meeting or going to a protest, but there are certain hygienic standards one could expect. Being un groomed, looking like a tramp, etc is not really any revolutionary act.

In fact, Trotsky was very well kept and dressed. But most Trotskyites don't dress like him or actually believe in what he did.

Lenin was a whinger himself.

I disagree.

I won’t agree entirely with your last sentence. All of these people were in a different age. The information age as we call this period since the internet exploded into popular use, well it’ll take the historians of three generations hence before it can really be evaluated.

But they were all middle class. You can say they were from a different age and all, but the fact remains that our best men have been middle class. Tone was a thorough elitist and I doubt he would have had much time for you or I or RSF, RSF,CIRA, RIRA, etc.

For me, we need leadership in the Republican movement. The left cannot provide it. It is plainly obvious that they have failed, big time. We don't have any right wing republicans now in government or parties. But even if we did, I doubt that the left would be willing to cooperate with them, even just on the issue of a United Ireland.