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  1. #71
    Cruimh Cruimh is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chiara View Post
    Hallo everybody!

    I've read all the posts in this thread and would like to express my opinion.
    In 2009 the "Pave the Way Foundation" found out that German Catholic bishops had excommunicated the nazist party since 1930.
    The first was the bishop Magonza following those of Munich, Colon and others.
    No catholic was allowed to subscribe nazist party and no nazist was allowed to take part to Catholic funerals or get the communion.
    Then Goering was sent to Rome to protest but the secretary of the Vatican, the future Pope Pacelli refused to meet him, so Goering was received by Pizzardo, but his requests were rejected.
    When in 1932 Hitler got the power, German bishops protested, but in vain.
    Most odd then that the Vatican signed the Reichskonkordat in 1933
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  2. #72
    Chiara Chiara is offline

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    Yes, maybe odd, it depends on the point of views. After the concordat, Pope Pacelli said to a British embassador that he had to chose between an agreement or the complete elimination of the German Catholic Church. The following are his own words: "I had to chose between being just hanged (concordat) or being hanged, disembowelled, quartered (no concordat).
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  3. #73
    Cruimh Cruimh is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chiara View Post
    Yes, maybe odd, it depends on the point of views. After the concordat, Pope Pacelli said to a British embassador that he had to chose between an agreement or the complete elimination of the German Catholic Church. The following are his own words: "I had to chose between being just hanged (concordat) or being hanged, disembowelled, quartered (no concordat).
    On the other hand :

    Link

    It was a marriage of convenience between Hitler and the Vatican, one which disenfranchised the Catholic laymen. As Hitler cynically put it:

    "We should trap the priests by their notorious greed and self indulgence. We shall thus be able to settle everything with them in perfect peace and harmony. I shall give them a few years' reprieve. Why should we quarrel? They will swallow anything in order to keep their material advantages. Matters will never come to a head. They will recognize a firm will, and we need only show them once or twice who is master. They will know which way the wind blows." [Quoted in Guenter Lewy,The Catholic Church and Nazi Germany (2000), pp. 25-26]
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  4. #74
    Liberator_Rev Liberator_Rev is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chiara View Post
    In 2009 the "Pave the Way Foundation" found out that German Catholic bishops had excommunicated the nazist party since 1930.
    This "foundation" is nothing but one Jewish businessman and his wife posing as experts in the history of the Roman Cathoilic Church's role in the Jewish Holocaust, and the quote above is a great illustration of how incompetent they are.
    Every scholar in this area knows that "the German Catholic bishops had excommunicated the nazist party" but they also know that it wasn't "since 1930". It was from 1930 only to 1933, when the Nazi ceased being a potential threat and became an actual threat.
    When the Nazis actually came to power in early 1933, the R.C. church's leaders made peace "with the Devil". They stopped forbiding the faithful from joining the Nazi Party, they gave in to Hitler's demands that they disband their "Centre Party" - one of the last obstacles in Hitler's path to absolute dictatorial power -, and they signed the Condordat of 1933, whose crown jewel for Hitler (in my estimation) was Article 16, which read:
    Before bishops take possession of their dioceses they are to take an oath of fealty either to the Reich Representative of the State concerned, or to the President of the Reich, according to the following formula: "Before God and on the Holy Gospels I swear and promise as becomes a bishop, loyalty to the German Reich and to the State of . . . I swear and promise to honor the legally constituted Government and to cause the clergy of my diocese to honor it. In the performance of my spiritual office and in my solicitude for the welfare and the interests of the German Reich, I will endeavor to avoid all detrimental acts which might endanger it."
    From that point on, how could any R.C. bishop or priest in Nazi Germany resist the Nazi government, when they had vowed to God not to do so?

    P.S. Both Catholic clergy and the Nazi government also invoked "the Word of God" to require obedience to the government, in the form of "St. Paul" who directed "people of faith" as follows in his Epistle to the Romans 13:1-7:
    "Let every person be subject to the governing authorities; for there is no authority except from God, and those authorities that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists authority resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Do you wish to have no fear of the authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive its approval; for it is God's servant for your good. But if you do what is wrong, you should be afraid, for the authority does not bear the sword in vain! It is the servant of God to execute wrath on the wrongdoer. Therefore one must be subject, not only because of wrath but also because of conscience.
    For the same reason you also pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, busy with this very thing. Pay to all what is due them--taxes to whom taxes are due, revenue to whom revenue is due, respect to whom respect is due, honor to whom honor is due.
    "
    Last edited by Liberator_Rev; 9th January 2012 at 03:03 AM. Reason: corrections of spelling, etc.
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  5. #75
    Chiara Chiara is offline

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    Yes, in my opinion, Hitler wasn't completely wrong. Unfortuantely a lot of priests cared and still care more to keep self advantages. The question is if the greedy ones were (and are) more than the good ones, I hope not.
    Regarding the Pope, nowadays, at last, public opinion recognizes that he was a much better person than he was thought to be.

    P.S. Hope I made myself understood in the last sentence. Got some problems wuth my English.
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  6. #76
    Chiara Chiara is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by Liberator_Rev View Post
    This "foudnation" is nothing but one Jewish businessman and his wife posing as experts in the history of the Roman Cathoilic Church's role in the Jewish Holocaust, and the quote above is a great illustration of how incompetent they are.
    Every scholar in this area knows that "the German Catholic bishops had excommunicated the nazist party" but they also know that it wasn't "since 1930". It was from 1930 only to 1933 when the Nazi ceased being a potential threat and became an actual threat. When the Nazis actually came to power, the R.C. church's leaders made peace "with the Devil". They stopped forbiding the faithful from joining the Nazi Party, they gave in to Hitler's demands that they disband their "Centre Party" - one of the last obstacles in Hitler's path to absolute dictatorial power -, and they signed the Condordat of 1933, whose crown jewel for Hitler (in my estimation) was Article 16, which read:

    From that point on, how could any R.C. bishop or priest in Nazi Germany resist the Nazi government, when they had vowed to God not to do so?

    P.S. Both Catholic clergy and the Nazi government also invoked "the Word of God" to require obedience to the government, in the form of "St. Paul" who directed "people of faith" as follows in Ch. 13 of his Epistle to the Romans 13:1-7:
    Yes, you're right. But I meant that this organization found the written documents about excommunication..at least it's my information.
    Regarding the other points, I've already expressed my opinion in the above post.
    Catholic church was involved with nazism of course, but for the majority of them it was the lesser evil.
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  7. #77
    Kilbarry1 Kilbarry1 is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by LongLiberal View Post
    Simply, no.
    There are no parallels in this country. One aspect is talking about 1930's Germany and the other is 21st century Ireland. You seem to be trying to push some sort of idea that the Catholic Church were in opposition to Hitlers Nazi regime, which is simply laughable.
    Firstly, the Vatican kept very very quiet during the Holocaust, why is that?
    Hitler himself was a Roman Catholic and often throughout Mein Kampf spoke about "doing god's work". He was baptised and never renounced his baptism. All soldiers in the SS would place three fingers in their belt to signify the Holy Trinity.
    Also, and most significantly the Cardinal Arch-Bishop of Munich, Adolf Bertram, held a special mass in 1939, when Hitler escaped assassination, to celebrate "the fortunate release of the Fuhrer". ......
    Do you even read previous posts. I quote from no 61

    "Tendentious reporting [3] of a small number of sex crimes (involving mainly lay staff) in Catholic boarding schools or religious houses enabled members of the Government to claim that the Catholic Church was awash with sex fiends. There were few holds barred in gathering the evidence, which involved the SD and Gestapo interviewing disgruntled religious drop-outs, ex-pupils and orphans, with offers of sweets alternating with a head bashed into a wall or the threat of concentration camp to secure the appropriate testimony. On this basis minister for the Churches Kerrl could claim that 7,000 clergy had been convicted of sex crimes between 1933 and 1937, whereas the true figure seems to have been 170, of whom many had left the religious life prior to their convictions. The deliberate inflation of statistics was a favoured Nazi device for ramping up hysteria [3], as they would do in 1939 when they turned 5,000 ethnic German victims of the Poles whose country the Nazis had invaded into '50,000'. There was no reporting of similar sexual transgressions involving members of Nazi formations."

    The above extract is from Chapter 3, sub-section 111 of Burleigh's book, the part entitled 'The Catholic Church and German National Socialism'.

    Notes:
    .......

    [2] So the Nazis accused the future Pope Pius XII of being a friend of Communists whereas 'liberals' accuse him of being soft on Nazis! I recall that George Orwell once said that Nazis and Communists have more in common with each other than either has with a democrat!

    [3] Regarding "tendentious reporting" and "ramping up hysteria" the following quotation from Hermann Kelly's book 'Kathy's Real Story' is relevant. The author is talking about the use of the term 'paedophile priest' by the media in Ireland.

    "According to Michael J. Breen (Studies Autumn 2000) this phrase was used 332 times in The Irish Times between August 1993 and August 2000. The 'paedophile priest' term comes up 265 times in The Irish Times archive between January 1996 - August 2007, yet the terms 'paedophile farmer', 'paedophile lawyer', 'paedophile teacher' or 'paedophile journalist' never occurs." (page 148/149).

    As per George Orwell, The Irish Times has more in common with Nazi propagandists than it has with the Catholic Church ......

    You do understand that in Nazi Germany and in modern Ireland, people who hated the Catholic Church invented and/or grossly exaggerated allegations of child abuse in order to discredit the Church? If you care to investigate a bit further you will also find that these false allegations included allegations of child murder. For example try Googling the phrases "Murder of the Undead" or "Victimless Murders" for allegations that the Christian Brothers murdered boys in their care. (The Nazi pornographer Julius Streicher made comparable claims about the Jews murdering Christian children.)
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  8. #78
    Kilbarry1 Kilbarry1 is offline

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    Vatican Concordats

    While I'm at it, the following quotation from Burleigh's book concerns the attempts of two future popes - Pius XI (Achille Ratti) and Pius XII (Eugenio Pacelli) to negotiate a Concordat with the Soviet Union in the 1920s. It throws an interesting light on the frequent denunciations of the Vatican concordat with Nazi Germany in 1933.

    Vatican concordats with governments do not imply approval of the governments. Of course there is a danger that a vicious dictatorship will use the agreement in order to boost its international standing - and that is precisely what the Soviet government was trying to do in the early 1920s. Indeed negotiations with the Vatican broke down because several governments - including both Britain and fascist Italy(!) - recognised the Soviet Union in 1924 and the Soviets no longer needed an agreement with the Vatican. However the future Pope Pius XII continued to negotiate even "when the execution in Leningrad of a Polish Catholic priest complicated matters" !!

    .... Both nuncios, Ratti in Warsaw and the younger Pacelli in Munich (until 1925, when he moved to Berlin as nuncio to the German Reich), were closely involved in Rome's diplomatic initiatives with the Soviets. The Vatican initially welcomed the fall of the Romanovs, believing that this would herald a new era of freedom and opportunity for the Roman Catholic Church in the debris of the Tsarist Empire. Benedict XV employed Ratti to contact Lenin on behalf of persecuted Catholic and Orthodox clergy.

    In late 1921, the Vatican offered the Soviet Union humanitarian assistance hurriedly incorporating a broader secret agreement which, capitalising on the disarray of the Orthodox Church would - they imagined - have enhanced Roman Catholic activities in Russia. The aid was provided but the wider agreement remained a dead letter. Assisted by the German Government which saw relations with Russia as a means of terminating Germany's pariah status, the archbishop of Genoa held talks with the Soviet foreign affairs commisar Chicherin on board an Italian cruiser with a view to negotiating a concordat. A further series of meetings took place at Rapallo, based on Vatican calls for freedom of conscience and Soviet demands for diplomatic recognition. Effortlessly overcoming the extreme distaste for German (Jewish) Bolsheviks that he is alleged to have expressed in 1919, Pacelli met Maxim Litvinov, the Soviet Union's (Jewish) foreign minister, at the Berlin villa of the brother of the German ambassador to Moscow.

    When Mussolini recognised the Soviet Union on 8 February 1924, and was quickly followed by, among others, Britain, Norway, Austria, Greece and Sweden, the Soviets ceased to regard negotiations with the Vatican as important except for the question of aid. Pacelli continued to negotiate with the Soviets in Berlin until mid-August 1925 when the execution in Leningrad of a Polish Catholic priest complicated matters. However he met Chicherin twice in 1925 and 1927, discovering that his Soviet interlocutors were prepared to concede less and less, and such talks abruptly stalled under Stalin, to whom the Vatican was an irrelevance.


    From Sacred Causes by Michael Burleigh - Chapter 3 "The Churches in the Age of Dictators", section II - "The Vatican, Communism and Fascism" page 164
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  9. #79
    Seanie Lemass Seanie Lemass is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by between the bridges View Post
    Godwin’s in the first post? Well to continue the theme been a member of the hilter youth didn’t effect a certain Roman Catholics cleric’s career…

    There were 18.9 million people of the eligable age to join the HJ when the Pope did. 18.7 million of them did. Now, think about that. You reckon they were all enthusiasts? Do you understand anything about totalitarianism?
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  10. #80
    Seanie Lemass Seanie Lemass is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chiara View Post
    Yes, in my opinion, Hitler wasn't completely wrong. Unfortuantely a lot of priests cared and still care more to keep self advantages. The question is if the greedy ones were (and are) more than the good ones, I hope not.
    Regarding the Pope, nowadays, at last, public opinion recognizes that he was a much better person than he was thought to be.

    P.S. Hope I made myself understood in the last sentence. Got some problems wuth my English.




    And they built the autobanhen!
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