Should Holocaust denial be an International crime?

[Cupid Stunt]

No political motivation lay behind the famine. Potato blight is not politically motivated.

[ephenry]

There can only be two reasons. They either want to make apologies for nazis or else they dislike Jews - or both. There's no other reasons, when you get down to it, why anyone would deny the holocaust happened

I agree Anti-semites and nazi apologists may certainly bandy on about there being no holocaust but surely we as a free society are strong enough to stand up for our own ideas and say "here's the evidence, morons". That leaves these intellectual pygmyies as figures of mockery rather than persecuted subversive thinkers which they would be it this law was introduced. Let their ideas stand up to reason and historical fact in a free market place of ideas.

Holocaust denial laws prohibit questioning of figures and facts surrounding holocaust or at least make it extremely difficult. As such few historians in Germany and austria will venture near the subject.

If the real holocaust figures are 4 million or 5 million or 8 million or 10 million then we as a society owe it to ourselves to find out so that we can build a fuller and more accurate picture of that dark time.

[Jozer]

What other thought crimes should people be imprisoned for, while we're about it?

[ephenry]

No political motivation lay behind the famine. Potato blight is not politically motivated.

He's refering to the exportation of irish produce during the famine to Britian and how it was supplemented with inferior British corn that couldn't find a market over there. This grain was known as peels brimestone because of its lack of nutrtional value. As a result many died. No official apology by the British Government has ever been made.

[Leopold Bloom]

[quote=Cupid Stunt]

But what about the denial of the Irish famine and the political motivation that lay behind it: should that be made a crime on these islands?

Who exactly denies this?[/quote:17vbuikz]

Who? Many of my English friends and acquaintances, that's who! And I'm no Brit basher. And these are not tatoo wearing lager swilling Chavs from Croydon. On the contrary, there all reasonably well educated and outward looking. But bring up the subject of the Irish famine with them and they'll immediately start waffling about the corn laws of the time and the laissez faire system of government: in other words, denial.

[ephenry]

Should one be criminalised for saying Charlie Haughey was not corrupt for instance?

No you should join fianna fail

[L'Chaim]

[quote=johnfás]

I would have no problem with this being a crime. Denying the holocaust is already a crime in some european counties. A writer David Irving was jailed for saying in one of his books that there were no gas chambers in Auschwitz.

That Irving was jailed is a good thing for at least one reason. At the moment we know the holocaust happened because there are still survivors of it who can confirm it, but this number of survivors are dwindling and in a few years time there will be no survivors left. All that will be left will be documents to show future generations what happened. If writers like Irving are allowed to distort the truth or deny the holocaust even happened, then future generations will have a choice of what version of history they believe. And that's wrong. The holocaust happened and future generations need to know it happened. Not because of the amount of people who died, or the way they died, or how laws were changed to allow this to happen, but to show what humans are capable of, and how easy it is to put plans in motion for genocide on this scale to happen, and could happen again if we are not careful.

And to deny the holocaust happened is not a freedom of speech issue because what it does is to distort history for future generations. And why do deniers want to deny the holocaust? There can only be two reasons. They either want to make apologies for nazis or else they dislike Jews - or both. There's no other reasons, when you get down to it, why anyone would deny the holocaust happened

You are correct that there are no legitimate reasons why anyone would deny the holocaust happened. You are also correct that attempts to deny it are attempts to distort history. However, given that the vast vast vast majority of historians and citizens accept that it happened; is it worthwhile making it a crime to deny it? Do you believe on a more general level that attempts to distort history should result in a custodial sentence? Look at Irish history, we'd all be imprisoning each other due to our attempts to distort history to our advantage.

As I said previously I do see the compelling argument given the magnitude of The Holocaust to support such a position. However, on a more general level I cannot support it given the fact that to do so sets a precedence far beyond Holocaust denial.[/quote:4ut4v69q]

Most of our history will have two sides to it. Our own irish history, which you mentioned on a more general level, is open to opinions of people distorting what happened. People will have opinions based on one side or the other. But they're not denying certain events happened per se. Historical facts can lead to different interpretations. But denying the holocaust happened is not getting the wrong interpretation,it's getting the wrong facts. The holocaust happened and deniers say that it didn't. I've no problem with that being a crime.

[Tigrrr]

Who? Many of my English friends and acquaintances, that's who! And I'm no Brit basher. And these are not tatoo wearing lager swilling Chavs from Croydon. On the contrary, there all reasonably well educated and outward looking. But bring up the subject of the Irish famine with them and they'll immediately start waffling about the corn laws of the time and the laissez faire system of government: in other words, denial.

Well, what exactly are you trying to suggest? That this particular Famine was an active attempt at ethnic cleansing?

[Leopold Bloom]

No political motivation lay behind the famine. Potato blight is not politically motivated.

There were areas of famine in other parts of the UK around that time. However, the soup kitchen was unique to Ireland.

[Leopold Bloom]

Who? Many of my English friends and acquaintances, that's who! And I'm no Brit basher. And these are not tatoo wearing lager swilling Chavs from Croydon. On the contrary, there all reasonably well educated and outward looking. But bring up the subject of the Irish famine with them and they'll immediately start waffling about the corn laws of the time and the laissez faire system of government: in other words, denial.

Well, what exactly are you trying to suggest? That this particular Famine was an active attempt at ethnic cleansing?

I don't think it was an active attempt at ethnic cleansing: more a passive, subconscious one - God's wrath against Catholic Paddies in much the same way as AIDS in the eighties was seen as God's vengeance against gays.