The Great Famine and the encyclical of Pius IX

[The Earl of Desmond]

This is the link to the BC radio4 programme claiming the letter from Pope Adrian was a fake - it's quite interesting and throws up many what if's. The letter was as likely to be fake as real - who was there to know either way back then.

Incidentially the FitzGeralds, not yet Earls of Kildare and Desmond, and the Plunketts did in fact challenge if such a letter was real both at the time and in later years but it was too late then as the traitor Dermot MacMurrough had done his damage.

The late 8th Duke of Leinster, who died in 2004) was firstly married to the daughter of the MacMurrough - funny how history coems around again!

[Riadach]

I would wonder why they doubted such a letter existed. Though perhaps they did not want Henry II interfering with their conquests.

Well, i'm not sure you could call MacMurchadha a traitor. He would have thought that no Irish king was above him. His only desire was to retrieve his kingdom, which Ruaidhrí has successfully dispossessed him of, and since ruaidhrí has suppressed all opposition within ireland, he had to look elsewhere. Remember as this stage, the only cause that mattered to an Irish king, was his own.

[Cael]

I don't think he was imposed by any sense of the word. Henry II hadn't even control over the angevin empire when Adrian IV was elected to the holy see. And had he, its unlikely he could have had enough power to install him. But you are right he was english. In fact John of Salisbury recalls that when he visited him, Adrian or Hadrian, longed to be at home. So it is fair to suppose he would have been more favourable to Henry's offer than most.

And to the Earl of Desmond, the letter itself is not extent but only found in Giraldus Cambrensis's Expugnatio Hibernica. To be honest, we are unsure of the contents of the actual letter. But the Irish prelates at cashel in 1172 seemed to accept it, as well as many Irish kings who submitted to Henry in 1172, and even the Irish who wrote the Remonstrance to the pope in the early 14th century.

The Donation of Constantine, which said that Constantine granted suzerainity of the Islands to St Sylvestre, is definitely a fake however.

I was thinking of T.S. Elliot's "Death in the Cathedral." In one line, Henry claims that he had imposed his own man on the Vatican. Elliot could be wrong, of course.

[Riadach]

Well whether he had a man on the throne or not is a different story. I'd say he did. But this was more an accident of fate than an act by Henry II. He was way too weak in 1154 to influence a papal election. But Adrian also had friends in high places, none other than Frederick Barbarossa himself. That would have been enough to ensure his election.

[Catalpa]

I could be wrong, but wasnt the "Pope" who signed the laudibiliter an Englishman, and a lacky of Henry II, imposed on the Vatican by Henry?

Here is a Link on him:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01156c.htm

[Norfolk Enchants]

It's here.

What do people think of the pope's attempts to highlight the famine? Did he do enough?

EDIT The link is now fixed.

All the same Blessed be his name for helping us at such a terrible time in our History.

Yeah, and blessed be the name of those who recognised the plight of immigrants arriving in the US and England from Ireland.

And not the scum who abused them, or US congressmen who tightened laws under the U.S. Passenger Acts to keep the Irish immigrants out, or the British government who introduced laws allowing local authorities deport Irish immigrants even if close to death with fever. No doubt pandering to the calls of decent respectable citizens to get rid of these filthy Irish immigrants. Sound familiar?

I wonder what the reaction would be in 1847 Britain and the US to a question like:

Name 3 good things the Irish immigrants bring to the country?

1..... 2..... 3......

Hypocrite

[Catalpa]

It's here.

What do people think of the pope's attempts to highlight the famine? Did he do enough?

EDIT The link is now fixed.

All the same Blessed be his name for helping us at such a terrible time in our History.

Yeah, and blessed be the name of those who recognised the plight of immigrants arriving in the US and England from Ireland.

And not the scum who abused them, or US congressmen who tightened laws under the U.S. Passenger Acts to keep the Irish immigrants out, or the British government who introduced laws allowing local authorities deport Irish immigrants even if close to death with fever. No doubt pandering to the calls of decent respectable citizens to get rid of these filthy Irish immigrants. Sound familiar?

I wonder what the reaction would be in 1847 Britain and the US to a question like:

Name 3 good things the Irish immigrants bring to the country?

1..... 2..... 3......

Hypocrite

If you want to discuss immigration anytime NE but this thread is on the Papacy and Ireland - stay on topic!