This day in Ireland 938 years ago....

[Riadach]

However there was a ritual called the banais ríghe in which a king was wedded to the land - thus sovereignty was bestowed upon him (and not contained within blood) so long as he cared for the land. McMurrough would have known about Dal Riata and the downfall of the Picts, he would have known of the nature of the Normans - he would have understood the danger of putting 'foreigners' in the position in which he put them... yet he scorned the needs of the land, his culture, country, systems of laws instead favouring his own ambition and putting the land into peril, thus in deeds he was not a king in the way that the responsibilities of that role are described in the banais ríghe (where that applied - Leinster may not have bothered with such things being so heavily Viking and Saxon influenced - however).

He was no different from any other king in that regard, however. Many kings had employed the services of Ostmen from Dublin, and even soldiers from the Western Isles in order to achieve their ambitions. Indeed, Muircheartach Ó Briain had enlisted the services of Arnulf Montgomery, a lord of Pembroke, 60 years before Diarmuid Mac Murchadha did so with the subsequent Earl of Pembroke, without the major consequences that Diarmait suffered. Yes he was ambitious, but more important he was innovative, he knew, as his great-grandfather had known before him, that the High Kingship would not be achieved by playing the game as it had always been played. Indeed, he wasn't the first to come to that conclusion. Muircheartach Ua Briain tried by enlisting the church, Toirdhealbhach Ua Briain tried by extensive use of dismantling and partitioning of enemy provinces, as well as effective use of defensive fortification. Muircheartach Ua Lochlainn tried overwhelming military force and riding roughshod over ancient rights and social codes, as well as assisting Henry II in his Scottish Campaigns, Ruaidhrí Ua Conchobhair tried by conciliatory jestures, councils, legal reforms, and overwhelming military force. Diarmuid would have seen nothing strange in thinking outside the box, his only flaw was that he resorted to the only option left open to him, and he died too soon after beginning his plan to see it come to fruition. Had he survived, perhaps he himself may have become High King, and Strongbow merely a Lord of Leinster under him.

Vassals would have done whatever they were told to do and not opposed him (particularly with his new army) this does not signify approval.

Not Irish vassals, who were notoriously recalcitrant.

[Thranduil]

Had he survived, perhaps he himself may have become High King, and Strongbow merely a Lord of Leinster under him.

That is an interesting possible playout of events you portray, the possibility that (as with some other kings who used similiar tactics perhaps) things might possibly have reverted to total Gaelic control after McMurrough evened his score, of course we must not forget the ambition of Henry II, who was strongly motivated towards acquiring Ireland (Laudabiliter included) and in all likelihood wouldn't have allowed things go back to how they were before.

As for the deeds of the other kings you mention, yes they were all scrapping to achieve absolute all-Ireland rule but perhaps many of the old Gaelic ways couldn't have survived a single monarch with absolute rule anyway (the solution often held up as most likely to enable us to resist foreign domination), primogeniture would be more influential (we'd get a royal familly like what they used on the continent and it would want to ensure it's stable continuation) and perhaps a change in tax systems and the ownership of land, coinage etc - might have followed, etc.

[Catalpa]

doubt it, we might have staved it off for a hundred years r so, henry was busy in france but sooner or later their eye would have turned west.

Yes but by that time a unified (more or less) Kingdom of Ireland might have emerged.

I doubt that in such a scenario the English would have considered an Invasion a worthwhile enterprise.

[Dr Pat]

Yes but by that time a unified (more or less) Kingdom of Ireland might have emerged.

I doubt that in such a scenario the English would have considered an Invasion a worthwhile enterprise.

What a prospect! How might Ireland be different today if the Brits had forgone the opportunity to get their paws on our country? Would Ireland be different as a country and would the Irish as a people be very different culturally? Think of it:- no Cromwell, no proxy wars, no endless rebellions, no Gorta Mor, no plantations, no Norn Iron, maybe Irish-speaking. What would our national psyche be like? Our economy? Would our political parties and system be very different? Fascinating questions, actually.

[eoghanacht]

Yes but by that time a unified (more or less) Kingdom of Ireland might have emerged.

I doubt that in such a scenario the English would have considered an Invasion a worthwhile enterprise.

There's no way we would have have been left to our own devices. Though there's no harm in dreaming or indulging in a bit of what iffery, as the poster above has done.

[Fraxinus_]

Very interesting post.

[readytogo]

I've always wondered why people talk about restoring a function for the British monarchy in Irish life, whereas our native dynasties are of almost unparalleled antiquity in Europe.

Hypothetical question (even if you don't support the idea): if Ireland was to become a kingdom which Irish dynasty (the O'Neills, the O'Connors, the O'Briens, the MacMurrough Kavanaghs, the O'Donovans, the O'Donnells etc) would be the most appropriate for enthroning?

[Breadan O'Connor]

Yes but by that time a unified (more or less) Kingdom of Ireland might have emerged.

I doubt that in such a scenario the English would have considered an Invasion a worthwhile enterprise.

I think even a unified Ireland would have found it difficult to resist the Normans.

The Normans seem to have had the best military equipment and tactics at the time.

They served as mercenaries as far away as Byzantium and the Crusades.

They even captured Sicily from the muslims.

[Catalpa]

There's no way we would have have been left to our own devices. Though there's no harm in dreaming or indulging in a bit of what iffery, as the poster above has done.

Well I beg to differ.

While of course we will never know I think the likelyhood is that English involvement in Ireland would have been far less if the events of the 1160's & 1170's had never happened.

Its a fact that the interests of the monarchs of England in this Country was minimal after the time of Henry II and King John's Expedition of 1210

- and John came here to tame the Anglo-Irish Lords more than the Gaelic Kings.

After that it was to be almost 200 years before another King of England set foot in Ireland again.

Henry II landing here was the result of circumstances in England due to the Murder of Thomas a Beckett.

If the good Archbishop had not been cut down its quite possible that Henry would not have come to Ireland at all.

[greenporcupine]

Catalpa,thankyou for telling the story so well.

Now I wonder ,do you have the date of birth for Diarmuid ?
It will be interesting for me to know if he had the sign of Leo strong in his chart,that is a Sidereal one .