This day in Ireland 408 years ago....

[YoungLiberal]

They think the Irish are retards.

They might think you a retard, in the same manner I think the English equivalent of you to be a retard.

On the other hand, I get on well with my English friends, pretty much in the same manner I get on well with my Zimbabewan friends and my American friends and my French friends etc.

If your Nationality is what defines you, you've little else going on in your life.

Anyway, they have been carrying on wars forever - explain?

Realism in International relations - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Have fun.

[joel]

They might think you a retard, in the same manner I think the English equivalent of you to be a retard.

On the other hand, I get on well with my English friends, pretty much in the same manner I get on well with my Zimbabewan friends and my American friends and my French friends etc.

If your Nationality is what defines you, you've little else going on in your life.



Realism in International relations - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Have fun.

Thanks for the insult. Go forth and suck it, gob********************e.

[Catalpa]

I suppose we'll have to endure a month of hand wringing and Brit bashing over this one too.
We should have won this one and we didn't.
End of story!
Another example of clutching defeat from the jaws of victory.
We would have been much better off if we had gone to Betty the 1st and done a deal with her, that no matter what, we would never allow Ireland to become a back door for the Spanish Catholic army.
Instead what do we do?
Deliberately encourage the Spanish to come in!
Spain at that time was the dominant power in Europe.
Much stronger than the English.
The English were for decades shivering in their shoes expecting a Spanish invasion of their mainland.
Any English monarch worth their salt would have done what Betty the 1st did and secure her exposed flank.
If we had an Irish Machiavelli to assist us at that time we might have made a better fist
of our diplomacy.
Instead we preferred fighting,getting the shyte kicked out of us,writing songs about it and crying in our beer for generations after.

Which shows how much you know about the period!

O'Neill was all too happy to make a deal with QE1 that had any chance of sticking.

He was basically pushed into a revolt that he didn't seek and didn't want.

Sure the deal with Spain was a gamble

- but it was that or eventual defeat anyway so better to have tried than never try at all...

As for Macca I'd say Aodh O'Neill would given him a run for his money in any era....

[Ifor Bach]

They think the Irish are retards.

Don't you think, in your case in particular, they might have a point?

[Thranduil]

Interesting post Catalpa.

In terms of it's ramifications on the island it was of colossal importance, after this (and the later Flight Of The Earls), the majority indigenous population would find themselves the only ones on these islands in full colonised mode, with no native aristocracy, no patronage of Irish culture (quite the opposite in fact as a policy) it would lead the way to a very extended trail of tears. The foreign introduced aristocracy that would come in obviously having little or no concern for the natives, it would lead to serious malfunctions such as our falling into civil war in the 40's (instead of being a United Free country which could have repelled Cromwell), Penal Laws, Famines and the destruction of the language and native Gaelic culture, in effect our loss of a native aristocratic leadership would result in major racial problems for us - as all peoples are to at least some degree protected and nurtured by the cultural similiarities they share with their elites, although it must be said that is not always true. It was at this point that Colonialism really began in full force in the country. The Bardic tradition would die out in the 17thC, those bards who believed James I was a friend of their traditions would be disappointed. On a global scale it was bad news for the Amerindians and the Aborigines, the Africans and the Indians too, the lessons learned in Ireland's experience would be scaled up abroad by the English/British Empire in the next few centuries, the victory for colonial foreign control in Ireland naturally being a victory for the efficacy of the practices generally from an imperialists perspective.

Hat off to the O'Neills and the O'Donnell's and their allies though, at least they tried.

We would have been much better off if we had gone to Betty the 1st and done a deal with her, that no matter what, we would never allow Ireland to become a back door for the Spanish Catholic army.

Any deal would have involved Anglicisation, the Scottish did a 'deal' in the way you suggest and the Clearances happened anyway, they speak English now too. The English wanted control of Ireland for it's own selfish reasons, namely the wealth in the land - the theory that England was afraid of Spain is bunkum, revisionist nonsense. In any event only the most craven apologist for British imperialism could argue in it's favour - that one country should offer itself up as a gift to prevent a 'greater evil' of another second country (and an avowed enemy at that) getting in trouble with a third country, typical West-British slavemind. Just previously over the preceding few decades the English had committed countless massacres, artificial famines and religious persecutions in Ireland, any deal struck from a position of weakness then would not have ended the brutal militant mindset of the Tudors/Stewarts. If there is one continuous strand in the events of the last 800 years it is that from the POV and actions of the English monarchy the existence of Irishness in Ireland itself was the problem, that was as true in the early 13thC as it was during the false famine.

I mean, really? How think are you? This idea that an entire nation of people could be inherently cruel. Or that one group of people who lived 400 years ago have some characteristic in common with another group people who are alive today, merely by virtue of the fact that they were born on the same piece of land mass.

Ethnic Nationalism, it's for retards.

We would see if you would have thought that had you been living in an English controlled ward in Ireland in the early 17thC, though i agree with you completely that we cannot accuse the English of today for the crimes of 400 years ago.

On another note how bizarre that the Ulster of today is regarded as 'British' when it produced the most splendidly defiant strains of Irishness then, whereas Dublin (Mountjoy's capital) today is the capital of the part of the island liberated from English control.