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  1. #11
    wizzard wizzard is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelR
    Actually Japan was forced to "open up" in the mid-19th century. Before that it was a feudal tightly-controlled (one could even say "totalitarian") society, with, for example, Christianity totally banned.
    TheRussianslearned how quickly they advanced from that forcing to open up did they not.
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  2. #12
    Sidewinder Sidewinder is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by BelfastSpark
    OK, Take the Roman Empire at its Apex. Are you seriously suggesting that Europe didnt Benefit from Greco-Roman Culture, its been the stalemate of western Civilisation for centuries in it laws and values, religion. Anthropology Suggests that Civilisation-technology moves from an east to west course of course you had civilisation in pre-romanic domains, however , do you honestly think that civilisations would have developed, Democracy and meritocracy if it wasnt for that eastward expansion of civilisation just look what Rome gave us in Technology the pre-romanic world prospered both Intellectually and technologically, and what happened when rome fell, Europe fell into the dark ages. All developed societies have went through some sort of influence or Invasion by a technological and intellectual superior people, its the oil so to speak in civilisation that makes humans advance from stagnant societies to more advanced, where would China be without Western Economic priciples? now one of the major economic powers etc, Sorry its not Social Darwinism,Eugenics or anything like that, its historical Fact, only most people see the negatives. when I say superior I dont actually mean it in the Nietzian Superman Sense
    Dear God, you really are serious, aren't you? You actually believe that humanity can only progress when racist nutjobs decide to run around slaughtering their neighbours! You don't think a society can develop a sophisticated civilisation by itself, peacefully!

    Yer a friggin loon. Dangerous, too.

    *adds Sparky to ignore list*
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  3. #13
    Cael Cael is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by BelfastSpark
    Quote Originally Posted by Sidewinder
    Quote Originally Posted by BelfastSpark
    invasion is natural, for 1 culture at its military and cultural apex to invade another, it human nature its been going on for thousands of years.In the case of Ireland being invaded well it was just our turn...Invasions are to the betterment of the race in the long run...
    NURSE!



    Dude, you really need to up the dosage.
    OK, Take the Roman Empire at its Apex. Are you seriously suggesting that Europe didnt Benefit from Greco-Roman Culture, its been the stalemate of western Civilisation for centuries in it laws and values, religion. Anthropology Suggests that Civilisation-technology moves from an east to west course of course you had civilisation in pre-romanic domains, however , do you honestly think that civilisations would have developed, Democracy and meritocracy if it wasnt for that eastward expansion of civilisation just look what Rome gave us in Technology the pre-romanic world prospered both Intellectually and technologically, and what happened when rome fell, Europe fell into the dark ages. All developed societies have went through some sort of influence or Invasion by a technological and intellectual superior people, its the oil so to speak in civilisation that makes humans advance from stagnant societies to more advanced, where would China be without Western Economic priciples? now one of the major economic powers etc, Sorry its not Social Darwinism,Eugenics or anything like that, its historical Fact, only most people see the negatives. when I say superior I dont actually mean it in the Nietzian Superman Sense
    Are you an evil spirit returned to haunt us from the dark days of the 19C?
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  4. #14
    BelfastSpark BelfastSpark is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cael
    Quote Originally Posted by BelfastSpark
    Nimrods historical accuracy is exellent, certainly it opens the questions and debates about the pros and cons of any cultural invasion, Many ultra Republicans will try to make a case of differance between the Irish Invasion of Scotland and that of Ireland and ignore that invasion is natural, for 1 culture at its military and cultural apex to invade another, it human nature its been going on for thousands of years.In the case of Ireland being invaded well it was just our turn, Nimrod makes more interesting points when he reminds us of how one culture becomes dominated by another in launguage and customs. Well this is also true of Ireland, it is totally anglosised yet with a deep underlying gaelic identity as well, history and anthropology shows us that nations-cultures that havent gone through Invasion or outside influence stay in a state of stone age, or a level of culture and sophistication that is eons behind those that have. in other words Invasions even in the case of Ireland-scotland are to the betterment of the race in the long run and sorrowfully bad in the short term.
    Who are these "ultra republicans" who say the Gaelic invasion of Scotland was any different to any other invasion? I never heard them anyway.

    And perhaps you could give a reference for these works of "anthropology" and "history" which show that any nation which hasnt gone through invasion stays in a stone age state. Does that mean that Japan was in the stone age until 1945?
    Firstly What I mean about Ultra Republicans are those who fail to See that the English have been here in one form or another for 800 years, also that they believe that if they wernt, Ireland would be in a state of Gaelic Utopia and egalitarianism,That all Irelands woes are the fault of the Brits and refuse to believe that the success that is Ireland today is a partly product of English euntreprenarialship, laws and government, secondly Japan certainly was a closed society yet had little civil society ruled by corrupt shoguns until a 'western style' japanese army with western Technology defeated the Samurai.I think 1860s? The Indian Kingdoms of south America were at a stone age state by 1600 before the spanish came,although they had a somewhat civilised society and hierachy and to the natives misfortune they paid the price because of superior technology, nonetheless now they are modern states, honestly do you Think if the Spanish never came and they had no outside influence or contact at all, they would be at the same level as Europe?? I dont think so, ok it sounds Rascist and Darwinian but thats not really what im trying to say,only cold hard realities
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  5. #15
    BelfastSpark BelfastSpark is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cael
    Quote Originally Posted by BelfastSpark
    Quote Originally Posted by Sidewinder
    Quote Originally Posted by BelfastSpark
    invasion is natural, for 1 culture at its military and cultural apex to invade another, it human nature its been going on for thousands of years.In the case of Ireland being invaded well it was just our turn...Invasions are to the betterment of the race in the long run...
    NURSE!



    Dude, you really need to up the dosage.
    OK, Take the Roman Empire at its Apex. Are you seriously suggesting that Europe didnt Benefit from Greco-Roman Culture, its been the stalemate of western Civilisation for centuries in it laws and values, religion. Anthropology Suggests that Civilisation-technology moves from an east to west course of course you had civilisation in pre-romanic domains, however , do you honestly think that civilisations would have developed, Democracy and meritocracy if it wasnt for that eastward expansion of civilisation just look what Rome gave us in Technology the pre-romanic world prospered both Intellectually and technologically, and what happened when rome fell, Europe fell into the dark ages. All developed societies have went through some sort of influence or Invasion by a technological and intellectual superior people, its the oil so to speak in civilisation that makes humans advance from stagnant societies to more advanced, where would China be without Western Economic priciples? now one of the major economic powers etc, Sorry its not Social Darwinism,Eugenics or anything like that, its historical Fact, only most people see the negatives. when I say superior I dont actually mean it in the Nietzian Superman Sense
    Are you an evil spirit returned to haunt us from the dark days of the 19C?
    No Cael, im not a Communist
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  6. #16
    Gombeen Gombeen is offline

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    Whether invasions are considered good or bad, the analogy seems a bad comaprison, since the Gaels from Ireland set up an independent kingdom in Scotland, so I get the impression that was more like the Norman invasion of England than the English conquest of Ireland.
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  7. #17
    BelfastSpark BelfastSpark is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sidewinder
    Quote Originally Posted by BelfastSpark
    OK, Take the Roman Empire at its Apex. Are you seriously suggesting that Europe didnt Benefit from Greco-Roman Culture, its been the stalemate of western Civilisation for centuries in it laws and values, religion. Anthropology Suggests that Civilisation-technology moves from an east to west course of course you had civilisation in pre-romanic domains, however , do you honestly think that civilisations would have developed, Democracy and meritocracy if it wasnt for that eastward expansion of civilisation just look what Rome gave us in Technology the pre-romanic world prospered both Intellectually and technologically, and what happened when rome fell, Europe fell into the dark ages. All developed societies have went through some sort of influence or Invasion by a technological and intellectual superior people, its the oil so to speak in civilisation that makes humans advance from stagnant societies to more advanced, where would China be without Western Economic priciples? now one of the major economic powers etc, Sorry its not Social Darwinism,Eugenics or anything like that, its historical Fact, only most people see the negatives. when I say superior I dont actually mean it in the Nietzian Superman Sense
    Dear God, you really are serious, aren't you? You actually believe that humanity can only progress when racist nutjobs decide to run around slaughtering their neighbours! You don't think a society can develop a sophisticated civilisation by itself, peacefully!

    Yer a friggin loon. Dangerous, too.

    *adds Sparky to ignore list*
    I didnt say humanity progresses when the slaugter of humanity takes place, you said that, I said it happens to occur with Invasion, like it or not. Im sorry I have offended your functionalist sensibilites.But Ive never come across a society that has developed peacefully, always with the search for resourses conflict with other nations-civilisations war-conflict breaks out.Its in the Human Genome. How do you think Europe is at peace today? because nations went to war, a means to an end dont you think..however unpalatable it might me, im not saying I agree with it, but it happens, peace comes out of conflict!!!
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  8. #18
    holdini holdini is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gombeen
    Whether invasions are considered good or bad, the analogy seems a bad comaprison, since the Gaels from Ireland set up an independent kingdom in Scotland
    Well the first crown of Scotland was the intermarriage of the Picts and Gaelic settlers, so in essence it represented the unification of these peoples rather than Gaelic cultural dominance.
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  9. #19
    Westie24 Westie24 is offline

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    Belfastspark said:

    because nations went to war, a means to an end dont you think..however unpalatable it might me, im not saying I agree with it, but it happens, peace comes out of conflict!!!
    I agree; if nationalists in 1914 had marched to Belfast to confront the UVF's threat of violence to deny total Home Rule there would have been a civil war between Unionists and Nationalists. One would assume nationalists would have won. It happened the US to stablise the society.

    It won't ever happen now, of course, as we're all too civilised.
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  10. #20
    BelfastSpark BelfastSpark is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by Westie24
    Belfastspark said:

    because nations went to war, a means to an end dont you think..however unpalatable it might me, im not saying I agree with it, but it happens, peace comes out of conflict!!!
    I agree; if nationalists in 1914 had marched to Belfast to confront the UVF's threat of violence to deny total Home Rule there would have been a civil war between Unionists and Nationalists. One would assume nationalists would have won. It happened the US to stablise the society.

    It won't ever happen now, of course, as we're all too civilised.
    Absolutely, and further to that, because Unionists had The might of the British army behind them, they got their way. Its a sad but realistic fact.
    On another Note, you think if the Irish had of invaded England we would have done anything different than they did to us??
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