Rights of the unborn child.

[adamirer]

It appear in irish law the life of the unborn child isn't given the value I thought it was. Without going into the nitty gritty of it, it appears Section 58 of the civil liability act 1961 provides that:

"for the avoidance of doubt it is hereby declared that the law relating to wrongs shall apply to an unborn child for his protection in like manner as if the child was born, provided the child is subsequently born alive".

The McGeehan case in 2004 found that 'no wrongful action is deemed in law to take place where a child is not born alive'

which leaves this huge gaping hole, where unborn infants, upto and including full 40 week gestation have no rights if a doctor, or indeed parent etc injures them to the point where they are not born alive.

Can those with knowledge please inform me who are the pro-life legal experts? MY knowledge of the matter is rather out of date, but i recall Prof William Binchey of TCD was one.. but maybe I am wrong.

Can people elaborate?

[eurosceptic]

The political parties are wilting in their committment to the unborn child. Only the committment and diligence of the pro-life lobby is protecting the unborn.

[Sailor]

No , please no - not another referendum !!!

[Limerick Lad]

It appear in irish law the life of the unborn child isn't given the value I thought it was. Without going into the nitty gritty of it, it appears Section 58 of the civil liability act 1961 provides that:

"for the avoidance of doubt it is hereby declared that the law relating to wrongs shall apply to an unborn child for his protection in like manner as if the child was born, provided the child is subsequently born alive".

The McGeehan case in 2004 found that 'no wrongful action is deemed in law to take place where a child is not born alive'

which leaves this huge gaping hole, where unborn infants, upto and including full 40 week gestation have no rights if a doctor, or indeed parent etc injures them to the point where they are not born alive.

Can those with knowledge please inform me who are the pro-life legal experts? MY knowledge of the matter is rather out of date, but i recall Prof William Binchey of TCD was one.. but maybe I am wrong.

Can people elaborate?

What rights can a dead foetus have, for that matter what rights can any dead person have regardless of age? The dead are the property of their next of kin.

[nozzferrahhtoo]

What rights can a dead foetus have, for that matter what rights can any dead person have regardless of age? The dead are the property of their next of kin.

I think what he was getting at is that the wording of this law allows for legal abortion.

You have rights now and if I kill you you are dead and Im a murderer. Clearly although you are dead you are deemed to have rights then, as otherwise I could not be prosecuted for murder. You have rights in retrospect.

However what the OP is worried about is if the fetus is alive and we do something that kills it, and it is subsequently born dead then no one is a murderer under the wording above.

I too would like to hear some of the resident experts opinion on this quote above. It is interesting to me. I have a personal position that the fetus has no rights of any kind for the first 12-16 weeks and after that it is rather subjective as to when it attains them. I am pro-choice up to 12-16 weeks therefore.

[Lloyd-Apjohn]

Do yo mean if a perfectly healthy pregancy is progressing and it is expected a full term child but someone harms the mother and by that harms or kills the baby then is someone held responsible - the answer to that is yes.

There were unborn twins in Omagh and weren't they included in the charges laid and the list of those who died. Otherwise I'm not sure there have been any cases were a pregnant women has had her unborn child killed by someone else while she survived except in accidents.

Although I wonder how many women miscarried babies at magdalene jails due to abuse from catholic nuns that we'll never know about.

[Trampas]

Although I wonder how many women miscarried babies at magdalene jails due to abuse from catholic nuns that we'll never know about.

Not too many I would say simply because most of those girls would have hidden the pregnancy for as long as possible and so most must have been near full term before being incarcerated.

[Lloyd-Apjohn]

Not too many I would say simply because most of those girls would have hidden the pregnancy for as long as possible and so most must have been near full term before being incarcerated.

Well seeing as they forced pregnant women to scrub floors and do the same work as other girls I would imagine the rate of miscarrying was very high. Unless of course they had already received the cash for the baby they were selling in which case they'd have to look after the mother until she gave birth - then again the nun's probably just lied and handed over the first baby that came to hand. I wonder what the position is for those women - if they brought a case to null and void all the adoptions made by the nuns.

[drkpower]

Guys, that provision is from the Civil Liability act 1961. The "wrongs" referred to are civil wrongs, ie. torts. It has nothing to do with criminal liability for procuring an abortion.

Essentially it means that a child, who was born alive, can take a civil action for wrongs done to him when he was "unborn". And if the child was born alive but subsequently dies, this right to take a civil action can be taken on his behalf. But if he was not born alive, he (or his dependents) cannot take a civil action arising out of wrongs done to him while he was unborn.

Clear (as mud), I'm sure.

[cHeal]

There were unborn twins in Omagh and weren't they included in the charges laid and the list of those who died. Otherwise I'm not sure there have been any cases were a pregnant women has had her unborn child killed by someone else while she survived except in accidents.

What country is Omagh in?


That wording is certainly very odd. The first segment seems to clearly define any action to hurt or kill a baby as unlawful while the second seems to offer the perfect loophole for abortion.

Certainly from my reading of that (perhaps out of context?) it would certainly be arguable that abortion is legal.


EDIT:

Ahh, thanks drk.