a fixed Nurse-Patient ratio - why doesn't Ireland have one?

[yehbut_nobut]

I don't know if this is true, so maybe others here can enlighten me?

A friend who used to work in nursing told me that when working in Australia, there was a set Nurse-patient ratio of 1-7. Seven patients in a ward were assigned to one nurse's care, and no more than that. If more patients came into the ward, another nurse had to be found, and care was divided up between them. New patients could not be the responsibility of a nurse who already had seven pateints -It was simpply unheard of and out of the question that a nurse would have more than seven people to care for.

On returning to Ireland the same friend worked in a hospital where due to staff shortages he and one other nurse had on occasions to care for over forty patients. No help from management, no extra resources- only a "nothing we can about it" attitude. So he and his colleague just had to get on with it. Although dedicated, attention to the individual and general quality of care- all the things, in short, that help people get well - could only be diminished.

It didnt take long until he suffered burnout and left nursing. That was years ago, but he tells me there is still no legal nurse-patient ratio in force today in Ireland. Technically, hospital managers could leave several wards with any number of patients staffed with just one nurse, and there would be no rule broken, or guidelines breached.

Like I say, I'm not a health expert, so: anyone know if my friend is correct? And if so, would introducing a realistic nurse-patient ratio help improve patient care in our hospitals?

[patslatt]

Yet Ireland has about twice as many nurses per 100,000 population as France and the UK, according to international statistics. What are they all doing? Working as clerks retrieving files? Sinecurists in soft day jobs? Avoiding patient wards like the plague?

The low nurse-to-patient ratio in a system that is vastly overnursed in terms of nurse numbers starkly illustrates just how abysmally mismanaged the health service is.

[Sligoboy]

Yet Ireland has about twice as many nurses per 100,000 population as France and the UK, according to international statistics. What are they all doing? Working as clerks retrieving files? Sinecurists in soft day jobs? Avoiding patient wards like the plague?

The low nurse-to-patient ratio in a system that is vastly overnursed in terms of nurse numbers starkly illustrates just how abysmally mismanaged the health service is.

Not true. You repeating it ad nauseum wont make it true either.

Here are the figures:

The OECD nurse/pop ratios;

Ireland 14.8 per 1000 pop or 1480 per 100,000
France 10.7 per 1000 pop or 1070 per 100,000
OECD average 13 per 1000 0r 1300 per 100,000

We are above average but nowhere near twice the numbers of the French system. Your claim is untrue. It also willfully neglects the fact that the French system employs nearly 3 times the number of doctors employed by the Irish system in terms of percentages of population.

This is getting silly. You have been corrected on this on a number of threads yet still you persist in peddling misinformation.

I am aware that certain elements are engaged in fire control after a damning programme on the state of the Health service on Monday night but posting a discredited myth as fact is disingenuous at best.

[yehbut_nobut]

Yet Ireland has about twice as many nurses per 100,000 population as France and the UK, according to international statistics. What are they all doing? Working as clerks retrieving files? Sinecurists in soft day jobs? Avoiding patient wards like the plague?

The low nurse-to-patient ratio in a system that is vastly overnursed in terms of nurse numbers starkly illustrates just how abysmally mismanaged the health service is.

Not true. You repeating it ad nauseum wont make it true either.

Here are the figures:

The OECD nurse/pop ratios;

Ireland 14.8 per 1000 pop or 1480 per 100,000
France 10.7 per 1000 pop or 1070 per 100,000
OECD average 13 per 1000 0r 1300 per 100,000

We are above average but nowhere near twice the numbers of the French system. Your claim is untrue. It also willfully neglects the fact that the French system employs nearly 3 times the number of doctors employed by the Irish system in terms of percentages of population.

This is getting silly. You have been corrected on this on a number of threads yet still you persist in peddling misinformation.

I am aware that certain elements are engaged in fire control after a damning programme on the state of the Health service on Monday night but posting a discredited myth as fact is disingenuous at best.

Even that doesn't give the full picture. If France - having as it does a better helth care system - has fewer people actually in hospital, it that could be one reason there are fewer nurses employed per 1000, they may yet have a higher nurse-patient ratio.

Again, I don't know if this is the case, but I started this thread specifically about Nurse Patient ratios, not general population ratio, intersting though that might be. SO I'll pose the question again - would having a defined ratio in place improve patient care, in Ireland?

[Galeforce]

The Nurse to Patient ratio is a bullsh&&e argument because it does not take into account Casemix.

For instance, on a general medical ward a 1-7 ratio may be adequete to provide the care needed to those particular patients.

However, In intensive care and Coronary Care units it will most likely be 1:1.

That nurse in Austrailia is talking through her ar&e.

Nurse patient ratio is driven by the dependancy level of the patients on a particular unit. It changes day to day and even hour to hour. It will also be affected by the Skillset of the nurses on duty also.

[sparkey321]

Overall our nurse patient ration is pretty good but the way they are deployed is terrible.

It varies between hospitals, between separate wards in hospitals and even between shifts. Obviously certain wards (ICU, HDU) etc will have much lower ratio's but even when comparting like with like there are differences.

Partially due to poor management and partially due to bad work practice and lack of flexibility within the nursing unions.

There was a story about the number of Patients treated in Tralee A&E and one of the Dublin Hospitals. Patient numbers were the same but staffing numbers were completely out of kilter with Tralee having less than half the nurses and doctors. I have the figures somewhere just need to dig them out.

[Galeforce]

There was a story about the number of Patients treated in Tralee A&E and one of the Dublin Hospitals. Patient numbers .

You are not comparing like with like.

The throughput may have been similar but i can guarantee you the Casemix in the Dublin Hospital was far more complex.

[Schuhart]

The OECD nurse/pop ratios;

Ireland 14.8 per 1000 pop or 1480 per 100,000
France 10.7 per 1000 pop or 1070 per 100,000
OECD average 13 per 1000 0r 1300 per 100,000

On that basis, it looks like Ireland has more nurses per head of population than Australia.

According to this, there are 1,164 full-time equivalent (FTE) nurses per 100,000 population employed in Australia, or 1,242 per 100,000 on a straight head count.

[Galeforce]

The OECD nurse/pop ratios;

Ireland 14.8 per 1000 pop or 1480 per 100,000
France 10.7 per 1000 pop or 1070 per 100,000
OECD average 13 per 1000 0r 1300 per 100,000

On that basis, it looks like Ireland has more nurses per head of population than Australia.

According to this, there are 1,164 full-time equivalent (FTE) nurses per 100,000 population employed in Australia, or 1,242 per 100,000 on a straight head count.

That does not really tell us anything. I dont see how that supports the argument for a fixed nurse patient ratio (eventhough the concept is stupid!)

[yehbut_nobut]

The OECD nurse/pop ratios;

Ireland 14.8 per 1000 pop or 1480 per 100,000
France 10.7 per 1000 pop or 1070 per 100,000
OECD average 13 per 1000 0r 1300 per 100,000

On that basis, it looks like Ireland has more nurses per head of population than Australia.

According to this, there are 1,164 full-time equivalent (FTE) nurses per 100,000 population employed in Australia, or 1,242 per 100,000 on a straight head count.

That does not really tell us anything. I dont see how that supports the argument for a fixed nurse patient ratio (eventhough the concept is stupid!)

GF - you seem to know about this probably more than I do.
Just to clarify, the nurse is male, not female.
I know I said a "fixed" ratio. What I meant is Fixed Minimum (or maximum!). Of course casemix and other factors would dictate situtations where a higher ratio is required, up to 1:1 in some cases, but surely you would agree there has to be some maximum number of patients, even patients requiring minimal care, that one nurse can care for?