Harney is part of the problem not the solution

[digoutday]

On what bais do you figure they deserve a better deal ??

Are they dramatically underpaid by international standards ?? NO they are actually very highly papid by international standards.

Are they understaffed by international standards ?? NO we have twice the number of nurses per bed when compared the France which is the number 1 heath service in the world.

Do they have poor terms and conditions ?? Errr no..

So by what standards do they deserve higher pay ??

Nurses pay takes 2 billion a year from our health budget. 2 BILLION. To give them a 12.5% raise for no reason other than "they deserve it" only serves to put further pressure on the Health Budget and patient services.

can they afford to buy a gaff?

conditions ? have u been in a hospital recently, they are all kips.

2 billion out of how much? 12 billion? to pay the front line staff, thats 16% of the budget, where does the rest go?

[hopi watcher]

Mary Harney.
Probably the best Minister For Health in the history of the State.

Don't you mean private health?

[hopi watcher]

Qualifications are not capabilities. His methods may well work in Canada where the Health Service is top class but here is a different story. You can't make silk purses out of pigs' ears.

So what do you want ?

Ignore a system that works and just keep playing with the system we have ? Where survival depends on geography and the level of competence at your small local hospital ?

Lets see go to a large hospital where the specialist sees 50 cases a week and has a full team around him or my small local hospital where the specialist sees 2 patients a week and has a piss poor support structure around him.

Ya I see your logic.

I see you have some perception regarding geography. The proposed system has no centre north of a line from Dublin to Galway. The proposal is to remove a service that already exists in Sligo which has outcomes for patients comparable with anywhere else. Does this make sense as far as patients are concerned?

[EGaffney]

Qualifications are not capabilities. His methods may well work in Canada where the Health Service is top class but here is a different story. You can't make silk purses out of pigs' ears.

So what do you want ?

Ignore a system that works and just keep playing with the system we have ? Where survival depends on geography and the level of competence at your small local hospital ?

Lets see go to a large hospital where the specialist sees 50 cases a week and has a full team around him or my small local hospital where the specialist sees 2 patients a week and has a piss poor support structure around him.

Ya I see your logic.

I see you have some perception regarding geography. The proposed system has no centre north of a line from Dublin to Galway. The proposal is to remove a service that already exists in Sligo which has outcomes for patients comparable with anywhere else. Does this make sense as far as patients are concerned?

If the point is to make outcomes for patients better than they are now, then you are obviously using the wrong benchmark.

[sparkey321]

can they afford to buy a gaff?

conditions ? have u been in a hospital recently, they are all kips.

You would give them a raise because of house prices ?? Their conditions are bad ??

What about the process engineer working in manufacturing? He does not get a defined benefit pension for a miserly contribution, he does not get 6 months paid sick leave, he does not get job sharing or retraining or automatic pay raises irrespective of performance. He does not get paid overtime or a guaranteed job for life. He also cannot afford a house. What happens him when he goes to his boss and says I need a raise because the cost of buying a house is too high ?

Get real.

Not all hospitals are kips.. I have been in quite a few hospitals over the last 12 months and most hospitals are not bad at all despite the hysteria. Plus its no reason to give a raise. We have nurses screaming for jobs at the current pay rates so there cannot be too much wrong with them.

I know you are not stupid so I will assume you are being awkward.

2 billion out of how much? 12 billion? to pay the front line staff, that's 16% of the budget, where does the rest go?

Are you being serious here ???

Nurses are the only front line staff ?? What about Doctors, physio's, radiographers ? What about the people who bring the food, clean the wards, pharmacists, microbiologists, laboratory staff, maintenance, facilities, porters, people who pay the wages, order the dressings, drugs, curtains, cleaning equipment.

What about paying for heating, paying for electricity, equipment, uniforms, servicing equipment, immunisation program, community care, emergency housing, medical card, drug refund scheme, home help, drug rehab, ambulance service etc.

They have all to be paid for.

The HSE have a website. On it there is a section called fact file where you can look up the budget, employment levels, patient numbers etc for each hospital.

If you want to make smart ass comments go somewhere else. If you want to have a debate I will argue with you all day.

[Rebel CNC]

Harney had not faced up to the biggest problems in the health service -
She needed to slash the HSE structure from the top down and build it up again. The current management have increased paperwork and don't even consider the patient.

She needed to stand up to the health worker unions and the double jobbing and featherbedding practices they defend to the last - the move to the new maternity hospital in Cork last year is a case in point. The nurses always say that the safety, health and comfort of patients is their main concern but when asked to move to a brand new unit less than two miles away with state of the art equipment and much better staff facilities, improved transport links and parking they demanded a €5,000 relocation/disruption payment.

The health service budget in this country is big enough to fund a top class service but hundreds of millions are wasted on poor management and Unions that try and squeeze it dry at the expense of the patients.

[EGaffney]

In fairness, there is only so much she can do with Fianna Fáil as the majority partner in government. FF is more fearful of the unions than any other party, including Labour. Look at how much trouble the unions have made for Mary (especially in terms of PR) when relatively moderate reforms have been done. There is no way FF would have tolerated large-scale redunancies or changed work practices.

[hopi watcher]

Qualifications are not capabilities. His methods may well work in Canada where the Health Service is top class but here is a different story. You can't make silk purses out of pigs' ears.

So what do you want ?

Ignore a system that works and just keep playing with the system we have ? Where survival depends on geography and the level of competence at your small local hospital ?

Lets see go to a large hospital where the specialist sees 50 cases a week and has a full team around him or my small local hospital where the specialist sees 2 patients a week and has a piss poor support structure around him.

Ya I see your logic.

I see you have some perception regarding geography. The proposed system has no centre north of a line from Dublin to Galway. The proposal is to remove a service that already exists in Sligo which has outcomes for patients comparable with anywhere else. Does this make sense as far as patients are concerned?

If the point is to make outcomes for patients better than they are now, then you are obviously using the wrong benchmark.

Explain. If Sligo outcomes compare favourably with the best world standard, whats the problem?

[EGaffney]

Because outcomes can be improved by increasing the size of a treatment/care team. If you accept the principle of division of labour, that is. So it doesn't matter how good something is already, it can still be made better.

[qtman]

Explain. If Sligo outcomes compare favourably with the best world standard, whats the problem?

They don't.

5 year survival rates across headline cancers are 5% lower in Ireland than the EU average.

SGH prepared its own report about 3 months ago that showed that general survival rates (not 5 year rates) in a specific group of women suffering from a specific cancer were similar to survival rates for privates patients suffering from the same cancer in a specific US cancer registry. The findings of the report were not independently verified.