More PRSI for a better health system

[kittyn]

Just wondering if anyone has any thoughts on this topic. As being discussed on todays news and suggested today that if we as the general public pay more in PRSI would get a first class free health care system?

[John_C]

The argument is based on the presumption that the problems in the health service are caused by a lack of money. Some are of that opinion, others aren't.

[tonys]

This argument is I think largely based on a misunderstanding of the costs of the systems often held up as the ideal.
In Germany for example people pay 20% plus of their wages just for the admittedly good health & social services and while I understand the costs in France are not quite that high they are still very high by our standards and still only cover 80% of any medical or hospital bill with everyone having to either have private insurance for the remainder or carry the balance of the cost themselves.
It should also be borne in mind that even with very high taxes both of these systems run at very substantial deficits and have to be subsidised by general taxation.

[Ronanr]

Comparing across different types of health care system is difficult because they all have different funding systems.

Probably the best way is to compare the proportion of GNP spent on health care (both public and private) in the various countries.

By this method, Ireland comes out ahead of the UK, I think, but behind most other wealthy European countries.

[kittyn]

But does anyone not think that we have been poring money into the health system over the years and it just seems to be getting worse not better and would we as tax payers, giving more through PRSI would be of no benefit.......? Our health system seems to be a bottomless pit at the moment......

[R Paul]

This argument is I think largely based on a misunderstanding of the costs of the systems often held up as the ideal.
In Germany for example people pay 20% plus of their wages just for the admittedly good health & social services and while I understand the costs in France are not quite that high they are still very high by our standards and still only cover 80% of any medical or hospital bill with everyone having to either have private insurance for the remainder or carry the balance of the cost themselves.
It should also be borne in mind that even with very high taxes both of theses systems run at very substantial deficits and have to be subsidised by general taxation.

Based on the Budget figures, the Government spends more on the Health Service every year then it takes in in PAYE Income Tax. So we basically pay all our income tax for the Health Service, get bills after our stays in hospital and still need Private Health cover to compensate for the poor service. And the suggested solutions to the system all amount to let's increase taxes/PRSI to pay for the system which never seems to show any signs of learning from its mistakes, much less fixing them.

[FutureTaoiseach]

The idea would work a bit differently from how the opening post of this thread implies.

The idea proposes using PRSI to pay for health insurance, and shifting the burden of paying for healthcare from the taxpayer to the premium payer.

I have constantly argued for universal health-insurance. The French and German health-services have this, and everyone - especially on the Left - are always rabbiting on about how perfect their health-services are. It would be contradictory then for them to reject this idea.

However my support is conditional on people still being allowed to choose their health-insurer. Competition is essential to keep premia down.

Furthermore, I would make a proposal of my own, that the hospitals should be privatised in order to stop the unions from holding the taxpayer to ransom any more.

Also I would insist that these proposals should coincide with huge tax cuts in order to avoid double-taxation.

[tonys]

This argument is I think largely based on a misunderstanding of the costs of the systems often held up as the ideal.
In Germany for example people pay 20% plus of their wages just for the admittedly good health & social services and while I understand the costs in France are not quite that high they are still very high by our standards and still only cover 80% of any medical or hospital bill with everyone having to either have private insurance for the remainder or carry the balance of the cost themselves.
It should also be borne in mind that even with very high taxes both of theses systems run at very substantial deficits and have to be subsidised by general taxation.

Based on the Budget figures, the Government spends more on the Health Service every year then it takes in in PAYE Income Tax. So we basically pay all our income tax for the Health Service, get bills after our stays in hospital and still need Private Health cover to compensate for the poor service. And the suggested solutions to the system all amount to let's increase taxes/PRSI to pay for the system which never seems to show any signs of learning from its mistakes, much less fixing them.

We are dealing with very entrenched vested interests here, we either take them on as we are beginning to and stay in for a very long and at times painful haul or we throw our hands up and keep pumping money into a bottomless pit run largely for the benefit of it’s employees. The choice is ours and in my opinion if Harney gets the chop in health any time soon we will have made that choice and will live (or not) to regret it.

[R Paul]

This argument is I think largely based on a misunderstanding of the costs of the systems often held up as the ideal.
In Germany for example people pay 20% plus of their wages just for the admittedly good health & social services and while I understand the costs in France are not quite that high they are still very high by our standards and still only cover 80% of any medical or hospital bill with everyone having to either have private insurance for the remainder or carry the balance of the cost themselves.
It should also be borne in mind that even with very high taxes both of theses systems run at very substantial deficits and have to be subsidised by general taxation.

Based on the Budget figures, the Government spends more on the Health Service every year then it takes in in PAYE Income Tax. So we basically pay all our income tax for the Health Service, get bills after our stays in hospital and still need Private Health cover to compensate for the poor service. And the suggested solutions to the system all amount to let's increase taxes/PRSI to pay for the system which never seems to show any signs of learning from its mistakes, much less fixing them.

We are dealing with very entrenched vested interests here, we either take them on as we are beginning to and stay in for a very long and at times painful haul or we throw our hands up and keep pumping money into a bottomless pit run largely for the benefit of it’s employees. The choice is ours and in my opinion if Harney gets the chop in health any time soon we will have made that choice and will live (or not) to regret it.

I would agree we are dealing with very entrenched interests - I seriously doubt that the HSE is the right way to go though. There is a serious lack of accountability in the organisation (to put it mildly) with a lot of upward buck-passing. The only real way to reverse that is to devolve as much power, accountability and budgetary control as far down the line as possible - that way there is less chance for people to say "Well, it wasn't my fault - it is decided by someone above me".

[flyer]

I pay VHI for medical treatment because otherwise my family will be left to die on waiting lists.
I pay tolls to drive on roads that a third world nation would be ashamed of.
I pay into fundraising at my kids school and still have to pay grinds for them to get a decent education
I pay bin charges to a private company because my council just stopped doing it
I pay sky for my TV because the Irish system is 20 years out of date
I pay for a private pension because the state one results in poverty
I pay for bottled water because my tap water is poisoned
I pay eircom phone watch to look after my house because the guards dont bother
I pay for taxis etc for my kids because public transportation doesn't exist
I pay stamp duty on my new house because the government thinks if I managed to scrape together enough money to buy a house then they didn't tax me enough the first time.

Can anyone tell me why I pay tax anymore?