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  1. #581
    Sailor Sailor is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by MjrMarv View Post
    We have no way of knowing how a SC would rule on a challenge to your proposed amended either, but you say it's okay because it's "probably fine". It's funny how you don't subject your ideas to the same scrutiny as others.



    Just as you perfectly know that if (and that's a big if) they came to this decision, they would do so regardless of our constitutional provisions. So it's not really relevant to the discussion at hand. Anyways, they probably won't, and seeing how that's good enough for you, then it's good enough for everyone else, so we can just repeal and legislate.
    It's very relevant to the matter at hand because any judgement from the ECHR that is not in accord with the constitution cannot be legislated for by any government without referring it back to the electorate.
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  2. #582
    talkingshop talkingshop is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by petaljam View Post
    Well we know this isn't true because other European countries have had time-restricted access to abortion for the last four decades now, and have had no issues with the ECHR on that count. Compare that to Ireland, which has several harsh condemnations from various human rights bodies.
    What the ECHR did in the past can't be relied on for what they might do in the future. As I have pointed out many times in relation to the gay marriage issue.
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  3. #583
    Lumpy Talbot Lumpy Talbot is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sailor View Post
    It's very relevant to the matter at hand because any judgement from the ECHR that is not in accord with the constitution cannot be legislated for by any government without referring it back to the electorate.
    I suppose that is where referendums come in handy.
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  4. #584
    Sailor Sailor is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lumpy Talbot View Post
    I suppose that is where referendums come in handy.
    It is indeed - the people rather than the ECHR or a compliant Irish government get to decide.
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  5. #585
    petaljam petaljam is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sailor View Post
    So if any referendum that might be held leads to only a very limited abortion regime, you can assure us that no case to the ECHR or appeal to the SC would ensue?
    I can't assure you that the sky won't fall on all our heads either.
    But in any case, taking a case is one thing, winning it is quite another.

    What I can assure you of is that the claim that any reasonable Irish legislation will be overturned by those means merely because of Roe v Wade, or because of the existence of the ECHR is nonsense.

    First, Roe-Wade isn't a relevant argument because the contexts are so different (links have been given) and for the second, the ECHR, it isn't a good argument because it would mean that all similar pre-existing European abortion regimes - which have been stable for decades, some for forty years and more - would also be overturned. And that just ain't going to happen. Only in Ireland does anyone claim to think it might.
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  6. #586
    talkingshop talkingshop is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by MjrMarv View Post
    We have no way of knowing how a SC would rule on a challenge to your proposed amended either,.
    If a Constitutional provision prevented the Oireachtas from legislating for abortion except for threat to life, health and FFA, for example, this would prevent the SC from finding that a right to an abortion as a matter of choice, or for any other reason, existed elsewhere in the Constitution. In the same way as the previous Constitutional provision preventing the Oireachtas from legislating for divorce, would have prevented the SC from finding that a "right" to divorce existed elsewhere in the Constitution.

    Again, you insult our intelligence.
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  7. #587
    Lumpy Talbot Lumpy Talbot is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sailor View Post
    It is indeed - the people rather than the ECHR or a compliant Irish government get to decide.
    And of course the people reserve their right to change the constitution as they see fit whether the Irish government agree with the result or not.
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  8. #588
    petaljam petaljam is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by talkingshop View Post
    What the ECHR did in the past can't be relied on for what they might do in the future. As I have pointed out many times in relation to the gay marriage issue.
    You're not presumably saying that the ECHR brought gay marriage in against majority wishes though? The recent referendum shows otherwise. The ECHR is extremely careful not to go against prevailing social consensus on these things - often excessively so IMO. Gay marriage has become socially acceptable to a large number of people - but you're claiming that the ECHR would bring in in a level of access to abortion that the majority would be very unhappy with. You've zero evidence of that happening. Because it hasn't.
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  9. #589
    Sailor Sailor is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by petaljam View Post
    I can't assure you that the sky won't fall on all our heads either.
    But in any case, taking a case is one thing, winning it is quite another.

    What I can assure you of is that the claim that any reasonable Irish legislation will be overturned by those means merely because of Roe v Wade, or because of the existence of the ECHR is nonsense.

    First, Roe-Wade isn't a relevant argument because the contexts are so different (links have been given) and for the second, the ECHR, it isn't a good argument because it would mean that all similar pre-existing European abortion regimes - which have been stable for decades, some for forty years and more - would also be overturned. And that just ain't going to happen. Only in Ireland does anyone claim to think it might.
    I suppose that is one way of avoiding the assurance I sought. But the point is that a case could be brought to the ECHR and that case might succeed and you cannot rule out that possibility. And you also make a reference to reasonable Irish legislation when you know full well that what you would define as reasonable is unlikely to be introduced.
    That is all we need to know to introduce a note of caution against removing abortion, specifically protection for unborn children, from the constitution.
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  10. #590
    Sailor Sailor is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lumpy Talbot View Post
    And of course the people reserve their right to change the constitution as they see fit whether the Irish government agree with the result or not.
    Who is arguing with that?
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