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  1. #1641
    Sailor Sailor is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by Calculusmadeeasy View Post
    Is this another one of your "objective opinions" ?

    One of the arguments put forth in favour of legislating abortion in Ireland is that it is being performed overseas. A particular grievance - one that has been persistently presented in the media - is that Irish women must travel to the UK to have an abortion.

    If legislation in the UK permits an abortion up to and including 24 week, then it should logically follow that in order to cater for Irish women's rights, we should legislate for the same maximum term. Then they won't have to travel to the UK for an 2nd trimester abortion.

    The pro-abortion side would correctly deem anything less to be hypocritical.
    In fact the travel argument goes further, in that if followed to its logical conclusion it says that we should have an abortion regime at least as liberal as the most liberal in the world. And then from that you get a global chain reaction which points to us and the claim will be that since there is unrestricted abortion in Ireland every other country should follow suit.
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  2. #1642
    Lumpy Talbot Lumpy Talbot is online now

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    Ireland. Leading the world in terms of access to abortion. At least unofficially anyway.

    And classically there are those of the Irish persuasion that believe we mustn't allow for abortion in case Irish women start wanting abortion on demand.

    Which they already have anyway.

    All's well and customary in the four green fields.
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  3. #1643
    Calculusmadeeasy Calculusmadeeasy is online now
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sailor View Post
    In fact the travel argument goes further, in that if followed to its logical conclusion it says that we should have an abortion regime at least as liberal as the most liberal in the world. And then from that you get a global chain reaction which points to us and the claim will be that since there is unrestricted abortion in Ireland every other country should follow suit.
    Exactamundo.

    Throw a frog into a tub of hot water, he'll hop right out. Stick him in lukewarm water, and turn up the heat slowly, like. He'll boil alive.

    Same tactic with abortion.
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  4. #1644
    Lumpy Talbot Lumpy Talbot is online now

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    Quote Originally Posted by Calculusmadeeasy View Post
    Exactamundo.

    Throw a frog into a tub of hot water, he'll hop right out. Stick him in lukewarm water, and turn up the heat slowly, like. He'll boil alive.

    Same tactic with abortion.
    Problem with that analogy is that the frogs all climbed out of the pot when your back was turned. And they'll continue to do so every year in their thousands.

    Won't matter a blind f*ck what the social reactionaries of Ireland think of the issue in the end.
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  5. #1645
    ger12 ger12 is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill View Post
    And what conclusions did you draw.
    Judgement That Permitted Fluoridation Of Water May Have Been Unsound | Politics | Frontlines | Hot Press

    That it's anyone's guess as to whether a SC challenge would be successful.

    It certainly can't be dismissed.
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  6. #1646
    talkingshop talkingshop is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by livingstone View Post
    I've explained where my charge of hypocrisy comes from. It is grounded in claims of a right to life but not vindicating it in the same way as yours or mine.

    Someone who doesn't believe in an equal right to life (even if the oppose abortion on other grounds), by definition, can't be guilty of the same hypocrisy.
    Yes, I know you'd like to zone in on a particular "hypocrisy" that you've seen in the pro-life position in relation to criminalisation of extra-territorial abortion, while ignoring the broader picture that in fact almost everyone, in every country, suffers from the same "hypocrisy" - i.e. that while they are content that their country criminalises at least some abortions, they do not want their country to criminalise women who get extra-terroritorial abortions that would be criminal at home! Now I think any remotely neutral observer who might read this thread can see that you've clearly lost this particular argument.

    (And, as I said previously, in relation to your spurious adding of a particular condition in your attempt to confine the "hypocrisy" to pro-life people, you can't even show that this condition is not met, in the absence of comprehensive information about why people support particular abortion regimes: anecdotal evidence about what some pro-choice people you know have or haven't claimed doesn't cut it).
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  7. #1647
    MjrMarv MjrMarv is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by ger12 View Post
    You see, you acknowledge that it's possible.

    Whose opinion I'd take more seriously I've out lined above and why.

    Yes, while article 40.3.3 has caused problems, it has prevented abortion on demand.

    I have no problem with our common law (judge made law) system.

    What I do have a problem with is those heavily invested in the pro choice movement leading people to believe that it's simply a case of repealing the 8th and leaving it up to legislators to legislate when that's not the case.
    And still no meaningful rebuttal. I feel sorry for the law student behind that blog though; you've cast them aside in favour of an older model in Gerry White .

    It's pointless praising 40.3.3 for preventing abortion on demand, when its proponents had intended it to prevent the Oireachtas from ever having to legislate for abortion. Look how that turned out. Can you say that another amendment couldn't result in something other than what you'd intend?
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  8. #1648
    ger12 ger12 is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by MjrMarv View Post
    And still no meaningful rebuttal. I feel sorry for the law student behind that blog though; you've cast them aside in favour of an older model in Gerry White .

    It's pointless praising 40.3.3 for preventing abortion on demand, when its proponents had intended it to prevent the Oireachtas from ever having to legislate for abortion. Look how that turned out. Can you say that another amendment couldn't result in something other than what you'd intend?
    No-more than you can say removal of article 40.3.3 won't result in the introduction of abortion on demand.

    Pretending to the People that "sure it'll be all right love" doesn't cut it.
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  9. #1649
    talkingshop talkingshop is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lumpy Talbot View Post
    Problem with that analogy is that the frogs all climbed out of the pot when your back was turned. And they'll continue to do so every year in their thousands.

    Won't matter a blind f*ck what the social reactionaries of Ireland think of the issue in the end.
    You're kind of missing the point of this thread though - which is really should the Irish people, by majority, decide what our abortion laws should be, or should we leave it open for the Supreme Court to make this decision? I think it should be the people - what do you think?
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  10. #1650
    ger12 ger12 is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by talkingshop View Post
    You're kind of missing the point of this thread though - which is really should the Irish people, by majority, decide what our abortion laws should be, or should we leave it open for the Supreme Court to make this decision? I think it should be the people - what do you think?
    You don't think that the far right pro choice end of it are banking on a SC challenge hence the determination to shout for repeal?
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