Originally Posted by tonic

Please, don't try to excuse yourself by claiming to be no worse than anyone else.
You think you have the right to decide who lives or dies, at least try to explain yourself on that basis and not hide behind your delusions.

And more argument free zone.

All you seem to have is 'don't highlight my hypocrisy, because you're worse than I am'.

Pretty weak stuff.

Originally Posted by livingstone

If their claim is that a 16+ week old foetus has a right to life in the same way as you or I do, yes, absolutely.

I don't know how many people claim that belief - I certainly don't, and I've not heard many pro-choice people making that claim - but if that is their claim, then yes, they are a hypocrite if they don't also believe in the full vindication of that right to life in the same way that my right to life is vindicated.

Almost everyone who is pro-choice believes in time limits, whether 12 weeks, 16 weeks, 24 weeks etc. There are very few people who would believe abortion should be available simply as a matter of choice after 24 weeks. And all those vast majority of people are happy for their preferred regime to be codified into law, and for abortion outside those provisions to be illegal/criminal. Yet I would suggest that the vast majority of these people would not be particularly keen on a woman being punished in Ireland for availing of a later abortion abroad than was legal under any Irish time limits we might have.

If there is hypocrisy in providing that certain abortions should be illegal in Ireland, but not wishing to criminalise women who would avail of such abortions in other jusrisdictions where they are legal - then I'm afraid this hypocrisy is shared by the vast majority of people, pro-life and pro-choice alike.

Originally Posted by talkingshop

Almost everyone who is pro-choice believes in time limits, whether 12 weeks, 16 weeks, 24 weeks etc. There are very few people who would believe abortion should be available simply as a matter of choice after 24 weeks. And all those vast majority of people are happy for their preferred regime to be codified into law, and for abortion outside those provisions to be illegal/criminal. Yet I would suggest that the vast majority of these people would not be particularly keen on a woman being punished in Ireland for availing of a later abortion abroad than was legal under any Irish time limits we might have.

If there is hypocrisy in providing that certain abortions should be illegal in Ireland, but not wishing to criminalise women who would avail of such abortions in other jusrisdictions where they are legal - then I'm afraid this hypocrisy is shared by the vast majority of people, pro-life and pro-choice alike.

Interesting point. You seem to be making the RCOM's argument for decriminalization of abortion.

Originally Posted by petaljam

You seem to be making the RCOM's argument for decriminalization of abortion.

Nope.

Originally Posted by talkingshop

Nope.

So you're just calling people hypocrites but not proposing any solution for them to stop being hypocritical?

Originally Posted by petaljam

So you're just calling people hypocrites but not proposing any solution for them to stop being hypocritical?

Why should I? Who cares if people are hypocritical - the people who are hypocritical presumably don't.

In any case I don't happen to think it is hypocritical myself, I am just pointing out to Livingstone that the hypocrisy he appears to see in pro-life people is there in the vast majority of people, including pro-choice people.

Originally Posted by talkingshop

Almost everyone who is pro-choice believes in time limits, whether 12 weeks, 16 weeks, 24 weeks etc. There are very few people who would believe abortion should be available simply as a matter of choice after 24 weeks. And all those vast majority of people are happy for their preferred regime to be codified into law, and for abortion outside those provisions to be illegal/criminal. Yet I would suggest that the vast majority of these people would not be particularly keen on a woman being punished in Ireland for availing of a later abortion abroad than was legal under any Irish time limits we might have.

If there is hypocrisy in providing that certain abortions should be illegal in Ireland, but not wishing to criminalise women who would avail of such abortions in other jusrisdictions where they are legal - then I'm afraid this hypocrisy is shared by the vast majority of people, pro-life and pro-choice alike.

I've explained to Sailor, the hypocrisy arises from the combination of two things:

(a) Claiming that the unborn child has the same right to life as you or me; and
(b) Not believing that someone who deliberately ends the life of an unborn child should be criminalised and punished in the same way as someone who deliberately ends the life of a born person.

If a pro-choice person's position was not just that abortion should be illegal after 20 weeks, but was actually that a 21 week old foetus has the same right to life that you or I do, but that person would also not support prosecuting people who have overseas abortions at, say, 24 weeks, then that position would certainly be hypocrisy.

I have never, though, encountered a pro-choice person claiming that a foetus has the same right to life as born people, even after the point where they believe abortion should be legal. And even if someone believes that, I've also never seen anyone trumpeting their belief in the 'right to life' of the unborn.

So no - just being a pro-choice person who favours term limits but not extra-territorial criminalisation beyond those limits does not make someone a hypocrite - it would only make them a hypocrite if, like tonic and ger, they claimed (and trumpeted) their belief in the right to life of the unborn as a full, equal and absolute right like yours or mine.

Originally Posted by talkingshop

Why should I? Who cares if people are hypocritical - the people who are hypocritical presumably don't.

In any case I don't happen to think it is hypocritical myself, I am just pointing out to Livingstone that the hypocrisy he appears to see in pro-life people is there in the vast majority of people, including pro-choice people.

As I said, hypocrisy requires two, conflicting beliefs or actions.

In this case, those are:

(a) that the unborn have the same right to life as you or me; and
(b) that those who end that life should not be criminalised and punished in the same way that someone who ends your life or my life would be.

What you're describing - being pro-choice but with term limits - doesn't necessarily meeting the belief (a), since one can believe in term limits without claiming or believing that the unborn child has an equal right to life after they pass. In the same way, there are pro-life people who oppose abortion but can also acknowledge that the unborn child does not have the same right to life as you and me. They are also not being hypocrites.

One can oppose abortion even though they don't believe the foetus has an equal right to life. The hypocrisy is in asserting that equal right, but refusing to back it up.

Originally Posted by talkingshop

Why should I? Who cares if people are hypocritical - the people who are hypocritical presumably don't.

In any case I don't happen to think it is hypocritical myself, I am just pointing out to Livingstone that the hypocrisy he appears to see in pro-life people is there in the vast majority of people, including pro-choice people.

But you haven't shown any such thing - the hypocrisy only comes about when the person claims to believe that abortion at a given stage of pregnancy is the equivalent of murder and they still don't want prosecutions despite that.

If OTOH someone thinks that abortion at that stage should be illegal just because, as with underage drinking or the right to vote, an age has to be chosen, albeit arbitrarily, in order for a law to function, then there is no more hypocrisy there than there would be in accepting that legal drinking ages vary from country to country.

Originally Posted by livingstone

I've explained to Sailor, the hypocrisy arises from the combination of two things:

(a) Claiming that the unborn child has the same right to life as you or me; and
(b) Not believing that someone who deliberately ends the life of an unborn child should be criminalised and punished in the same way as someone who deliberately ends the life of a born person.

If a pro-choice person's position was not just that abortion should be illegal after 20 weeks, but was actually that a 21 week old foetus has the same right to life that you or I do, but that person would also not support prosecuting people who have overseas abortions at, say, 24 weeks, then that position would certainly be hypocrisy.

I have never, though, encountered a pro-choice person claiming that a foetus has the same right to life as born people, even after the point where they believe abortion should be legal. And even if someone believes that, I've also never seen anyone trumpeting their belief in the 'right to life' of the unborn.

So no - just being a pro-choice person who favours term limits but not extra-territorial criminalisation beyond those limits does not make someone a hypocrite - it would only make them a hypocrite if, like tonic and ger, they claimed (and trumpeted) their belief in the right to life of the unborn as a full, equal and absolute right like yours or mine.

Are you advocating for abortion up to term?

Should the 8th amendment be removed from the constitution that's certainly possible should a successful challenge be taken.

Although I'd wager that would go against most Irish peoples wishes.