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  1. #1571
    Sailor Sailor is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by livingstone View Post
    Well, some specified, specific pro-lifers who claim that they believe that the unborn have the same right to life as you and I and who have posted that on this thread.

    There are no pro-choice posters that I am aware of who have posted similar claims.



    I'm glad you accept you were wrong when you claimed it was currently illegal.

    But you deliberately ignore the point. If anyone believes that it should continue to be lawful to travel abroad for an abortion, and that such women should not be criminalised, prosecuted and punished in the same way as any other person who deliberately ends a life, they simply cannot claim that they believe that the unborn have the same right to life as you and me.

    It is simply a lie for them to claim that is the case.

    And if they are not lying - if they do, genuinely believe that the right to life of the unborn is the same as yours and mine, and so someone who ends that life should be criminalised and punished just as someone who takes your life or my life would be - then they should fess up and admit, as you have done, that you want to criminalise and prosecute women who travel to the UK for an abortion.
    If somebody believes that life begins at fertilisation they should seek to have all abortion criminalised. And those who believe that life begins at a later date, but prior to birth, should likewise favour the criminalization of abortions after their chosen date.
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  2. #1572
    tonic tonic is offline

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    If you want to protect unborn lives, where is the best place to do that, in law/legislation or in the constitution?

    You put it where those in favour of abortion don't want it, in the constitution.

    They may be self interested moral free lumps, but they're not stupid, just dishonest about why they think it shouldn't be in the constitution.
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  3. #1573
    livingstone livingstone is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sailor View Post
    Criminal Law (Suicide) Act 1993 - this was the law under which Gail O'Rorke was charged, and though she was found not guilty, that verdict was not based on the jurisdiction in which the offence was alleged to have been committed.
    Incidentally I am in favour of legalizing euthanasia and assisted suicide.
    It looks like the actions that she was charged for occurred in Ireland (i.e. making travel preparations etc).

    If the friend who wanted to avail of assisted suicide had made their own way to Switzerland but Gail O'Rourke was also there and then helped them, it's less clear that the 1993 Act would have applied. There is no presumption of extra-territorial application of law unless it is specifically asserted by the legislation (for example, in the legislation on FGM).

    In the case of the case you mention, the actus reus occurred in Ireland, not Switzerland. In the case of extra territorial abortion, the actus reus occurs in another country, so in the absence of a specific provision in legislation on extra-territorial criminalisation, would not be criminalised.

    All of that being said, I don't think someone should be criminalised for helping a friend who has decided to travel abroad to avail of assisted suicide - but where the cirminalisation is of actions that occur in Ireland, it would be incorrect to describe it as a case of extra territorial criminalisation.
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  4. #1574
    livingstone livingstone is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sailor View Post
    If somebody believes that life begins at fertilisation they should seek to have all abortion criminalised. And those who believe that life begins at a later date, but prior to birth, should likewise favour the criminalization of abortions after their chosen date.
    Only if they believe that the point at which they consider that 'life begins' is the same point that someone attains the same right to life that you and I enjoy.

    But broadly speaking, we agree. Those who do not favour the criminalisation of women who travel for an abortion cannot possibly claim to believe in the same right to life as you and I enjoy. That includes the likes of tonic.

    Of course the alternative to tonic's hypocrisy is your desire to criminalise and prosecute thousands of Irish women a year.

    Neither of you are coming out smelling of roses in this whole exposition.
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  5. #1575
    Sailor Sailor is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by livingstone View Post
    It looks like the actions that she was charged for occurred in Ireland (i.e. making travel preparations etc).

    If the friend who wanted to avail of assisted suicide had made their own way to Switzerland but Gail O'Rourke was also there and then helped them, it's less clear that the 1993 Act would have applied. There is no presumption of extra-territorial application of law unless it is specifically asserted by the legislation (for example, in the legislation on FGM).

    In the case of the case you mention, the actus reus occurred in Ireland, not Switzerland. In the case of extra territorial abortion, the actus reus occurs in another country, so in the absence of a specific provision in legislation on extra-territorial criminalisation, would not be criminalised.

    All of that being said, I don't think someone should be criminalised for helping a friend who has decided to travel abroad to avail of assisted suicide - but where the cirminalisation is of actions that occur in Ireland, it would be incorrect to describe it as a case of extra territorial criminalisation.
    I also thought that Marie Fleming and/or her partner took some action seeking immunity for him if he were to assist her to avail of assisted suicide in Switzerland but I can't find anything on it. Any recollection of that?
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  6. #1576
    livingstone livingstone is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sailor View Post
    I also thought that Marie Fleming and/or her partner took some action seeking immunity for him if he were to assist her to avail of assisted suicide in Switzerland but I can't find anything on it. Any recollection of that?
    No, but again it could be the same situation. From what I've seen, the basis of Gail O'Rourke's prosecution seems to have been that she made efforts to book travel etc (and presumably to help her friend getting access to travel etc) - i.e. acts that took place within Ireland.

    If Marie Fleming sought a declaration, it was possibly that the same actions on the part of her husband would not attract criminal sanction.
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  7. #1577
    Sailor Sailor is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by livingstone View Post
    Only if they believe that the point at which they consider that 'life begins' is the same point that someone attains the same right to life that you and I enjoy.

    But broadly speaking, we agree. Those who do not favour the criminalisation of women who travel for an abortion cannot possibly claim to believe in the same right to life as you and I enjoy. That includes the likes of tonic.

    Of course the alternative to tonic's hypocrisy is your desire to criminalise and prosecute thousands of Irish women a year.

    Neither of you are coming out smelling of roses in this whole exposition.
    I think that conclusion is unavoidable. To allow that the life of a foetus is of less worth than that of a born infant presents us with obvious comparisons between the worth of a week old infant - who is basically fukk all use for anything - and the worth of the life of a brain surgeon in the middle of a delicate surgical procedure.
    As for the issue of prosecutions, if a crime is committed we should prosecute, and if the outcome offends, it is perhaps the legal and penal systems that need to be looked at rather than overlooking an illegal act because we do not come out smelling of roses if we address it.
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  8. #1578
    DaveM DaveM is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sailor View Post
    I also thought that Marie Fleming and/or her partner took some action seeking immunity for him if he were to assist her to avail of assisted suicide in Switzerland but I can't find anything on it. Any recollection of that?
    I think she wanted to commit suicide in Ireland and wanted her husband to be able to help her without fear of prosecution.
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  9. #1579
    Sailor Sailor is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by livingstone View Post
    No, but again it could be the same situation. From what I've seen, the basis of Gail O'Rourke's prosecution seems to have been that she made efforts to book travel etc (and presumably to help her friend getting access to travel etc) - i.e. acts that took place within Ireland.

    If Marie Fleming sought a declaration, it was possibly that the same actions on the part of her husband would not attract criminal sanction.
    You're probably right - I'll see if I can find anything on it. But now we really must get back on topic.
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  10. #1580
    Sailor Sailor is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveM View Post
    I think she wanted to commit suicide in Ireland and wanted her husband to be able to help her without fear of prosecution.
    Perhaps it was in Ireland. Thanks.
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