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  1. #1561
    petaljam petaljam is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by talkingshop View Post
    If the SC finds that restrictions in legislation in relation to abortion are unconstitutional then those restrictions fall, it's as simple as that. And the government would feel under strong pressure (not least from the pro-choicers, media, Colm O'Gorman and his ilk) to legislate for an ECHR/UN ruling even if it was against the wishes of the majority.
    And if the population care about it the way they care about, say, Irish Water, then it would be an issue at the next election.
    If they don't care about it, then it isn't really against their wishes, is it?

    I mean, that's how legislation generally works - you seem to think there's something unique about the SC and abortion. There isn't.
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  2. #1562
    Sailor Sailor is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by livingstone View Post
    No it wouldn't, and no it's not. An overseas abortion is not 'currently illegal' (assuming it's legal in the overseas country).

    The rest of your post is based on an incorrect premise.



    The problem there is with the 'though illegal'. If we legalised abortion to 20 weeks and an Irish person had a legal abortion in the UK at 22 weeks, that would not be illegal under Irish law.



    No need for quotation marks. They wouldn't be illegal, full stop. And I don't think they should be. Because I'm not the one claiming that the unborn have a full, absolute and equal right to life as born people.



    The hypocrisy of many pro-life people (not all of them, admittedly - lots of them acknowledge that the rights of the unborn are lesser than those of actual born people) lies with two facts:

    1. The claim that the unborn have the same right to life as you or I; and
    2. Believing that ending that unborn life should not attract the same penalty as it would if someone ended your life or my life.

    I believe (2) but not (1). It is the two beliefs together that give rise to hypocrisy.
    If an overseas abortion is not currently illegal why have you been suggesting that pro-lifers are being hypocritical in not calling for prosecutions?
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  3. #1563
    livingstone livingstone is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sailor View Post
    If an overseas abortion is not currently illegal why have you been suggesting that pro-lifers are being hypocritical in not calling for prosecutions?
    The hypocrisy stems in BOTH not calling for it to be criminalised nor to be prosecuted.
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  4. #1564
    Sailor Sailor is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by petaljam View Post



    You're assuming that anyone who supports abortion up to a fixed date believes that after that it is murder or something similar.

    I don't think you're right in that assumption. Most people who support access to ToP for a limited time do so up to a stage of gestation which they feel leaves a comfortable margin of error.

    Choosing the legislative route does mean choosing a somewhat arbitrary date. Drinking alcohol before one's 18th birthday may be illegal, but that doesn't mean that the act itself is any different a month before or a month after.


    As an aside, it's precisely that arbitrary nature of choosing a specific cut off date which is the reason why the RCOM argues for decriminalizing abortion altogether - not, as the usual scaremongers here would have it, because they want late abortions to increase, but because they don't think the threat of criminal prosecutions for the vanishingly few illegal late abortions is an effective way of ensuring that any terminations which take place happen as early as possible.
    I'm not, I am saying that some who support abortion at a later date believe that is the date at which life begins. And there is the same obligation on them, if they are to avoid the charge of hypocrisy, to call for criminalization and prosecution of women who have later abortions as there is on pro-lifers to seek the same in respect of all abortions.
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  5. #1565
    Sailor Sailor is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by livingstone View Post
    The hypocrisy stems in BOTH not calling for it to be criminalised nor to be prosecuted.
    And anybody who believes life begins at 16 weeks has the same obligation to call for criminalization and prosecution for later abortions.
    But I must also comment that you seem to be associating an obligation under law with particular moral viewpoints - in other words if the individual sets a limit for terminations you say they should seek a change in the law and prosecutions based the nature of their moral objection. That's kind of dangerous territory.
    And as for your position in regard to foreign abortions not being illegal, why then is extra-territorial assisted suicide illegal and subject to prosecution in Ireland?
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  6. #1566
    livingstone livingstone is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sailor View Post
    And anybody who believes life begins at 16 weeks has the same obligation to call for criminalization and prosecution for later abortions.
    If their claim is that a 16+ week old foetus has a right to life in the same way as you or I do, yes, absolutely.

    I don't know how many people claim that belief - I certainly don't, and I've not heard many pro-choice people making that claim - but if that is their claim, then yes, they are a hypocrite if they don't also believe in the full vindication of that right to life in the same way that my right to life is vindicated.

    But I must also comment that you seem to be associating an obligation under law with particular moral viewpoints - in other words if the individual sets a limit for terminations you say they should seek a change in the law and prosecutions based the nature of their moral objection. That's kind of dangerous territory.
    Not when it comes to the moral viewpoint that abortion is the deliberate ending of a human life with the same right to life as you or me.

    And as for your position in regard to foreign abortions not being illegal, why then is extra-territorial assisted suicide illegal and subject to prosecution in Ireland?
    It's not just my position, it's just the law. It is not illegal for a woman to go to the UK and obtain an abortion which would be illegal in Ireland. That is just the fact - if you want to dispute that, feel free to provide the law which you think criminalises an abortion in the UK.

    As for extra-territorial assisted suicide, you'd also need to tell me which law criminalises that activity - I'm not aware of such a law.
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  7. #1567
    Sailor Sailor is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by livingstone View Post
    If their claim is that a 16+ week old foetus has a right to life in the same way as you or I do, yes, absolutely.

    I don't know how many people claim that belief - I certainly don't, and I've not heard many pro-choice people making that claim - but if that is their claim, then yes, they are a hypocrite if they don't also believe in the full vindication of that right to life in the same way that my right to life is vindicated.



    Not when it comes to the moral viewpoint that abortion is the deliberate ending of a human life with the same right to life as you or me.



    It's not just my position, it's just the law. It is not illegal for a woman to go to the UK and obtain an abortion which would be illegal in Ireland. That is just the fact - if you want to dispute that, feel free to provide the law which you think criminalises an abortion in the UK.

    As for extra-territorial assisted suicide, you'd also need to tell me which law criminalises that activity - I'm not aware of such a law.
    So your comments about hypocrisy are directed at both pro-lifers and some pro-choicers. And since you say there is no legal prohibition on overseas abortions we can only hope that the nonsense being put forward by some about locking women up will not rear its head here again. I'm still not clear to to your mixing individual moral beliefs and State law, but as we're way off-topic we'll not pursue that. So we'll leave it at that and get back on topic.
    Last edited by Sailor; 11th January 2017 at 05:47 PM.
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  8. #1568
    livingstone livingstone is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sailor View Post
    So your comments about hypocrisy are directed at both pro-lifers and some pro-choicers.
    Well, some specified, specific pro-lifers who claim that they believe that the unborn have the same right to life as you and I and who have posted that on this thread.

    There are no pro-choice posters that I am aware of who have posted similar claims.

    And since you say there no legal prohibitions on overseas abortions we can only hope that the nonsense being put forward by some about locking women up will not rear its head here again.
    I'm glad you accept you were wrong when you claimed it was currently illegal.

    But you deliberately ignore the point. If anyone believes that it should continue to be lawful to travel abroad for an abortion, and that such women should not be criminalised, prosecuted and punished in the same way as any other person who deliberately ends a life, they simply cannot claim that they believe that the unborn have the same right to life as you and me.

    It is simply a lie for them to claim that is the case.

    And if they are not lying - if they do, genuinely believe that the right to life of the unborn is the same as yours and mine, and so someone who ends that life should be criminalised and punished just as someone who takes your life or my life would be - then they should fess up and admit, as you have done, that you want to criminalise and prosecute women who travel to the UK for an abortion.
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  9. #1569
    livingstone livingstone is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sailor View Post
    So your comments about hypocrisy are directed at both pro-lifers and some pro-choicers. And since you say there is no legal prohibition on overseas abortions we can only hope that the nonsense being put forward by some about locking women up will not rear its head here again. I'm still not clear to to your mixing individual moral beliefs and State law, but as we're way off-topic we'll not pursue that. So we'll leave it at that and get back on topic.
    Oh, and incidentally - you asked me a question about the link between the law on extra territorial assisted suicide and the law on extra-territorial abortion.

    Can you tell me which law you think criminalises extra-territorial assisted suicide in a country where it is otherwise lawful?
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  10. #1570
    Sailor Sailor is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by livingstone View Post
    Oh, and incidentally - you asked me a question about the link between the law on extra territorial assisted suicide and the law on extra-territorial abortion.

    Can you tell me which law you think criminalises extra-territorial assisted suicide in a country where it is otherwise lawful?
    Criminal Law (Suicide) Act 1993 - this was the law under which Gail O'Rorke was charged, and though she was found not guilty, that verdict was not based on the jurisdiction in which the offence was alleged to have been committed.
    Incidentally I am in favour of legalizing euthanasia and assisted suicide.
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