Register to Comment
Page 109 of 218 FirstFirst ... 95999107108109110111119159209 ... LastLast
Results 1,081 to 1,090 of 2173
Like Tree558Likes
  1. #1081
    ger12 ger12 is offline
    ger12's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    45,572

    Quote Originally Posted by ger12 View Post
    I'm not interested in debating whether abortion is right or wrong, that's been discussed in quite a number of threads.

    Rather, could we look at whether Ireland could face a Roe V's Wade situation in the event of the removal of the recognition to the right to life of an unborn child.

    In Ireland and the U.S. we have a common law system. While the U.K. also have a common law system, they don't have a written constitution so they can legislate as they please.

    So I'd argue that the U.S. is the best comparator.

    Do you believe any attempt to limit a woman's right to an abortion may be considered unconstitutional under Privacy and Bodily integrity like in the U.S.?



    Edit
    I'm adding an opinion piece by a constitutional lawyer to this OP as I believe it is significant to the discussion. Discussion around this on the thread begins on January 7th.

    He suggests that "The only way it would seem possible to impose some limits on the right to abortion would be to read the decision of the people to remove constitutional protection for the unborn as somehow still subject to some implicit limitation.

    However, the argument that the power of the people to amend the Constitution was subject to the natural law rights of the unborn was rejected by the Supreme Court in the abortion information Bill reference in 1995.

    In the course of its judgment, the court said: “The people were entitled to amend the Constitution in accordance with the provisions of article 46 of the Constitution and the Constitution as so amended by the Fourteenth Amendment is the fundamental and supreme law of the State representing as it does the will of the people.”

    Unless one can draw a relevant distinction in this context between natural law and some other possible restriction on the people’s power to amend the Constitution, it seems to me that this decision means that the simple deletion of the Eighth Amendment will have to be interpreted as an unqualified decision to remove constitutional protection from the unborn, resulting in abortion on demand."

    So if the amendment is removed, it won't be a case of simply returning to the situation in 1982. There may be an imperative to disregard any rights on the part of the unborn child.

    "Abortion on demand the legal outcome of repeal of Eighth Amendment"
    Abortion on demand the legal outcome of repeal of Eighth Amendment

    What happens if the 8th is repealed?
    Quote Originally Posted by ger12 View Post
    My point is and consistently has been:

    1. We have have in our Constitution rights to privacy and bodily integrity. These rights have been interpreted in the US as protecting the right of a pregnant woman to abort her unborn child i.e. Roe v. Wade.

    Roe v. Wade was based on Griswold v Connecticut as was the Irish case of McGee v. AG.

    2. These Constitutional rights to privacy and bodily integrity have to be balanced in Ireland by our Supreme Court against the unborn child's right to life under Article 40.3.3°.

    Remove Article 40.3.3° and it becomes very difficult indeed to fetter the right to an abortion. It is not alarmist by any means under such circumstances to foresee a model of abortion on demand. Of course many abortion campaigners hold that out as their eventual aim.

    I hope that we can discuss the effect of 'Repealing the Eight' as unforeseen consequences undermine the process of referenda to amend our Constitution.
    Two things strike me.

    1. The widespread poor understanding of our Irish legal system in comparison to mainland Europe. There are significant differences between a civil law system and a common law system, Judge made law.

    2. The notion has been debunked that should 40.3.3 be removed from our constitution abortion on demand isn't possible. Clearly it is a possibility.
    Sign in or Register Now to reply

  2. #1082
    Emily Davison Emily Davison is offline

    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    23,704

    Quote Originally Posted by ger12 View Post
    Two things strike me.

    1. The widespread poor understanding of our Irish legal system in comparison to mainland Europe. There are significant differences between a civil law system and a common law system, Judge made law.

    2. The notion has been debunked that should 40.3.3 be removed from our constitution abortion on demand isn't possible. Clearly it is a possibility.
    In relation to point 1. Now that we have you with your constitutional expert beside you why on earth should any of us be confused. Haven't you clarified it clearly for us. Ireland is basically the US system. And let's not discuss anywhere else as they are not relevant. Isn't that your point?

    Unlike you though, mere non experts, at the CA asked for:

    Others asked for additional information on the abortion regimes in the Netherlands, Poland and the UK so that, as one facilitator put it, “we can avoid the mistakes they have made”.


    Citizens

    I think you need to toodle on down there and explain to them that those countries are not at all revelent to the discussion.
    Sign in or Register Now to reply

  3. #1083
    Emily Davison Emily Davison is offline

    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    23,704

    Quote Originally Posted by ger12 View Post
    Two things strike me.

    1. The widespread poor understanding of our Irish legal system in comparison to mainland Europe. There are significant differences between a civil law system and a common law system, Judge made law.

    2. The notion has been debunked that should 40.3.3 be removed from our constitution abortion on demand isn't possible. Clearly it is a possibility.
    In relation to point 2, what exactly do you mean by abortion on demand?

    If a pregnant woman has cancer and needs treatment that will be more effective if she's not pregnant, or if having treatment would damange her foetus, does she have on demand access to abortion in Ireland right now?
    Sign in or Register Now to reply

  4. #1084
    Emily Davison Emily Davison is offline

    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    23,704

    Quote Originally Posted by ger12 View Post
    I

    The report just now on RTE said 6 of the 14 tables at the citizens convention did not want Irish abortion law more liberal, the remaining 8 tables I suspect may have very varied opinions on the "less restrictive abortion regime" they would like to see. Irish people have not greatly changed their opinion on abortion perhaps, I guess only a referendum will prove or disprove that.

    Apparently they are to explore in the coming weeks exactly what this thread explores, what legislation could replace 40.3.3. if it were removed. I hope that discussion is more honest than this one.
    The IT said that 10 of the 14 tables were not happy with Article.

    The first asked if “the right to life of the unborn child should continue to be constitutionally protected in the same way as now”.

    In response, facilitators at 10 of the 14 tables in the room said the view of their group was “no”. Two groups said “yes”, but both indicated they were in favour of a more liberal constitutional regime. The remaining two did not express a clear opinion either way.


    So I find it odd you would 'suggest' that Irish people have not changed their views on abortion.
    Sign in or Register Now to reply

  5. #1085
    RodShaft RodShaft is offline
    RodShaft's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Posts
    9,115

    Quote Originally Posted by Emily Davison View Post
    In relation to point 2, what exactly do you mean by abortion on demand?

    If a pregnant woman has cancer and needs treatment that will be more effective if she's not pregnant, or if having treatment would damange her foetus, does she have on demand access to abortion in Ireland right now?
    As I understand on demand, it's at any time without there being any threat to the life of the mother.

    But do enlighten me, warriors on both sides, because ye have looked at it far more than I have.
    Last edited by RodShaft; 9th January 2017 at 10:21 AM.
    Sign in or Register Now to reply

  6. #1086
    StarryPlough01 StarryPlough01 is offline
    StarryPlough01's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    10,960

    Quote Originally Posted by Genesis1 View Post
    Sailor can get the ECHR landmark judgment on bailii.org and inform himself.
    ABC v Ireland at the European Court of Human Rights -
    https://www.ifpa.ie/sites/default/fi...t-briefing.pdf

    Litigation in Irish Courts

    The Court did not consider that the Irish courts are the appropriate fora to determine whether a woman qualifies for an abortion which is legal in the State. This would inevitably result in the Irish constitutional courts setting down on case by case basis legal criteria for medical procedures. The Irish courts themselves have underlined that this should not be their role and it is inappropriate to require women to take on such complex constitutional proceedings if they can establish that their life is at risk. Moreover, the Irish courts could not enforce a mandatory order requiring a doctor to carry out an abortion because the State had no knowledge of which doctors actually carry out abortions and where. The Government was unable to provide evidence to the Court of a single lawful abortion ever being performed in Ireland.


    Failure to Legislate

    ….


    Submissions and Briefings in below link as well-
    https://www.ifpa.ie/Hot-Topics/Abortion/ABC-v-Ireland

    Supervision of A, B and C v Ireland by the Council of Europe

    The Committee of Ministers of the Council of Europe oversees the implementation or "execution" of rulings of the European Court of Human Rights. The Committee monitored the A, B and C v Ireland judgment under its enhanced supervision procedure, and issued decisions in relation to the Irish Government's progress in giving effect to the judgment at its meetings in September 2011, March and December 2012 and March 2013.

    During these meetings, the Committee expressed concern at the Government’s delay in implementing the judgment in A, B and C v Ireland and underlined the importance of putting in place "substantive measures" to execute the judgment. At its December 2012 meeting the Committee of Ministers noted the view of the expert group that only the implementation of a "statutory framework" would provide a defence from criminal prosecution and urged the Irish Government to "expedite" implementation of the judgment in the A, B and C v Ireland case.

    In December 2014, the Committee of Ministers closed the case, noting that the Irish Government had given effect to the ruling by introducing the Protection of Life During Pregnancy Act 2013.



    https://www.ifpa.ie/node/142

    The judges unanimously ruled that Ireland's failure to implement the existing constitutional right to a lawful abortion in Ireland when a woman's life is at risk violates Article 8 of the European Convention on Human Rights. The decision reaffirmed the Supreme Court X Case judgment of 1992 and two preceding referenda.
    Sign in or Register Now to reply

  7. #1087
    Emily Davison Emily Davison is offline

    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    23,704

    Quote Originally Posted by ger12 View Post
    We did explore that situation Emily on the thread posted below.

    You wouldn't want to derail this thread would you?

    The end of Downs syndrome?
    We're discussing the laws on abortion here aren't we. Are you now saying we can't discuss the CA? You yourself brought the CA into the thread. Or is it only you can do what you want on the thread and when you don't like what other's post you object.

    In addition, my post was in response to your post when you brought Down's syndrome into it.
    Sign in or Register Now to reply

  8. #1088
    tonic tonic is online now

    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    47,701

    Quote Originally Posted by Genesis1 View Post
    You are dismissing the other poster's valid points without backing up your claims. Clearly, you are the one deflecting and obfuscating with an angry retort trying to control this discussion with an insubstantial argument.
    Quote Originally Posted by Genesis1 View Post
    Sailor can get the ECHR landmark judgment on bailii.org and inform himself.
    Ah, another pro abortion poster and this time from the land that first gave the "civilised" world the "right" to kill our young on an industrialised scale.
    We await the new perspective this might bring to the debate.
    Sign in or Register Now to reply

  9. #1089
    StarryPlough01 StarryPlough01 is offline
    StarryPlough01's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    10,960

    Quote Originally Posted by Emily Davison View Post
    We're discussing the laws on abortion here aren't we. Are you now saying we can't discuss the CA? You yourself brought the CA into the thread. Or is it only you can do what you want on the thread and when you don't like what other's post you object.

    In addition, my post was in response to your post when you brought Down's syndrome into it.
    Calc hasn't been reprimanded ( lol ) for all his derailing posts.

    My below post was valid:

    Quote Originally Posted by ger12 View Post
    Afternoon all.

    I just had breakfast with a good friend (male, lawyer) and I was telling him him the joys of P.ie and this tread.

    He told me he has long believed that there is a better way, one that involves having an even number of seats in each constituency.

    Then, one gets two ballot papers.

    One with the women looking to be elected, one with the men looking to be elected.

    50/50. One male and one female elected.

    What do ye think of his proposal?
    I noted that GER12 keeps reposting a link about EAGLE (cross pollinating). GER12'S DOUBLE STANDARDS - 'Don't do as I do, but do as I say.'
    Sign in or Register Now to reply

  10. #1090
    StarryPlough01 StarryPlough01 is offline
    StarryPlough01's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    10,960

    Quote Originally Posted by ger12 View Post
    Are you suggesting some form of censorship?
    He wants some rearguard soldiers in place to protect Anti-Choice who are retreating from their powerful foe (Pro-Choice).
    Sign in or Register Now to reply

Sign in to CommentRegister to Comment