200 attend Dublin public meeting to discuss health crisis

[cactus flower]

Why are you so opposed to cutbacks? If you cared so much about the patient you would want to acheive a higher level of efficiency in the department of health and the HSE. These overstaffed inefficient bureacracies require massive reform and you will find that bloating them up with more money will not prevent tragedies from happening.

An NHS would be nice but the British have a more innate sense of public duty and accountibility, and the same system, with our culture, would not produce the same result.

Out of interest can you provide evidence that the Dept of Health is overstaffed?

Unfortunately, I can only rely on the word of an acquaintance who works there. And I can say no more as I would not want to reveal anything that might get them in trouble. I'm not a troll. I don't post counter views just to annoy people. I've heard enough to believe the issues with the health service lie with the unaccountable permanent government and if anyone has the political will and clout to streamline it it is Mary Harney. I fear, however, that the problem may be outside even her abilities.

What definitely do not think is the solution is raising taxes to further fund this money guzzling beast.

Dont know about the Department of Health but HSE Management was assessed for benchmarking and some managers were not able to describe what their job responsibilities were ( after 2 years in the job)

[kerrynorth]

Are there still 200 members of the SWP?

Don't know how many members the SWP have but the SP has increased its membership since the election and has well over 200 members.

Technically, you're not a party then. You need 300 paid up members to be a registered political party in Ireland.

Or have a member of the Oireachtas (which they now don't have). But these are requirements at registration, not an ongoing requirement that I am aware of. I know the Registrar of the Dail will contact party's annually to confirm that they wish to maintain their registration.

[freedomlover]

Approximately 200 people packed into Wynns Hotel on 29 January, to attend a meeting hosted by the Socialist Party on the issue of the health crisis in Ireland.

Health crisis in Ireland?

What exactly is a health crisis when talking about a country? What does it mean? How is it measured?

Clearly, when talking about individuals, there will always be some who are having a health crisis. In fact, every single one of us will sooner or later have the ultimate health crisis, namely a severe illness leading to death. Some will experience that in their 20s, some in their 30s,..., some in their 90s. But, eventually everyone will have a health crisis. So, in this respect, health is fundamentally different from other social ills like unemployment or homelessness. Its difficult but not impossible to have no unemployment. Its difficult but not impossible to have no homelessness. But, its impossible to have no ill-health and no death. So, the fact that there are individuals in a country experiencing a health crisis at any given time, possibly so severe it leads to death, does not mean that country can be described as having a health crisis. Otherwise, every country in the world could be described as having a health crisis.

So, when talking about countries rather than individuals, what does it mean to say there is a health crisis in one and not in another? For example, take those who say there is a health crisis in Ireland. Would they also say there is or there is not a health crisis in Denmark? In Finland? In Scotland? In N. Ireland? In Portugal? In Belgium? In the U. States? In Cuba? If they say there is no health crisis in these countries, could they specify in what way they differ from Ireland in relation to health and mortality?

I'd say the only way is to know if a country (as distinct from some individuals in that country) is having a health crisis is to compare mortality rates for that country with those of other countries. If its mortality rates are significantly higher than in other countries of a roughly similar level of economic development, then we can say that country has a health crisis. If they are lower, then that country can not possibly be described as having a health crisis, even if there are tragically individuals in that country who are having a personal health crisis (since such individuals will exist in every country).

Based on this, there is no justification for claiming that there is a health crisis in Ireland. Mortality rates (adjusted for age) have fallen more in Ireland since 1999 than in any other EU country and are now among the lowest in the EU. They are lower than in any of the countries I listed above. For example, of the countries I listed above, its the high-tax Nordic paradise of Denmark (and not Ireland), a country much admired by left-wing parties in Ireland and whose public-only health service most left-wingers in Ireland want replicated here, that has by far the highest mortality rates (adjusted for age). Denmark's mortality rates (adjusted for age) are almost 20 per cent higher than in Ireland.

For those who think that this is all FF propaganda, may I refer them to an article written by that well-known FF propagandist, ex-Taoiseach Dr Garret Fitzgerald, in the Irish Times of 21 October 2007. As you need a subscription to access the link, I've also cut and pasted it below.

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/opinio ... 42028.html

Other countries would die for our falling mortality rate

I was taken aback by a headline in last Tuesday's Irish Times Health Supplement: "Irish death rate higher than average" because at that moment I was preparing to write an article about the dramatic decline in our death rate that has taken place in the first six years of this decade, writes Garret FitzGerald

Reading the text of this story I soon discovered the explanation for this apparent conflict.

The Health Supplement piece was about a study carried out by the Society of Actuaries for the purpose of estimating survival rates for life insurance purposes, and studies of this kind have to be based on long-term trends in mortality, in this case the trend over a 25-year period from 1980 to 2004.

And for 20 of those 25 years our death rate was well above the EU average.

However, because of the long-term actuarial function of this study, it did not include any breakdown in death rates in sub-periods of that quarter of a century.

Such a breakdown would have shown a sudden change in the mortality pattern after 1999.

By contrast, what I - an honorary member of the Society of Actuaries as it happens - was about to write about, was the extraordinary decline in our death rate that has taken place during those six years from 1999 to 2005.

Back in 1999 our age-standardised death rate was the highest in western Europe. Only seven eastern European states had a worse record than ours.

However by 2005 only four western European states had as good a record as Ireland - Italy, Sweden, France and Spain.

There is no evident relationship between our economic growth in the 1990s and this more recent improvement in our death rate.Yet in the mortality stakes, just like economic growth, we have once again caught up with our neighbours in record time.

Of course, death rates are falling almost everywhere. Yet in most countries this improvement is at a rate of 2 per cent to 3 per cent a year. And in a substantial minority of European countries the decline is 1 per cent a year.

In our case, however, the recent rate of improvement has been almost 5 per cent a year.

This represents a three- to four-fold acceleration of the annual decline in mortality that we had been experiencing prior to 2000.

I find it surprising that such a remarkable phenomenon, although known to health experts, has attracted no public attention.

I have analysed this process by looking at causes of death.

There have been reductions in the rate of mortality under almost all headings yet for some causes of death the mortality rate has been falling slowly - by 1 per cent a year or less.

That is true of lung, breast and prostate cancer, and for digestive and genito-urinary causes. The latter has the slowest improvement rate of all, perhaps because of the rapid rise in sexually-transmitted diseases.

The fastest decline in mortality rates is to be found in respect of all forms of circulatory and respiratory diseases and also cancer of the colon. In all these cases the death rate has been falling by between 5 per cent and 7 per cent a year.

The higher figure is the remarkable rate at which deaths from heart attacks has been declining. The virtual halving of such deaths within six years has been a remarkable phenomenon.

Research is taking place into this sudden and sharp change in our mortality pattern.

One such study is suggesting that 60 per cent of the improvement may be due to lifestyle factors rather than actual healthcare improvements, although some believe the lifestyle factor may be even more pronounced than this.

"Lifestyle" relates to such factors as better eating habits and a reduction in smoking. Some experts believe, however, that this improvement may also reflect the delayed effects of better care for children many decades back.

What remains to be explained is why this improvement in mortality rates has come so suddenly, and has been so rapid.

I have been told that, important though this new trend may be in its own right, it may have less impact than one might expect on expectation of life. There has, however, also been a recent improvement in this, affecting men more than women. This has slightly bridged the substantial gap between male and female survival figures. But that is a matter that I shall leave to actuaries, whose comment on the long-term significance of these recent data would be interesting to hear.

[qtman]

Approximately 200 people packed into Wynns Hotel on 29 January, to attend a meeting hosted by the Socialist Party on the issue of the health crisis in Ireland.

Health crisis in Ireland?

There isn't a crisis. The service lags behind some areas (e.g. waiting lists) and excels in other areas (maternity care), and all in all, is about an average service as EU member states go. We rank 16th out of 27 in the EU Powerhouse Consumer Health index.

However, because we have so little influence over our own economy, and because there isn't a Left/Right divide between our main political parties, the Health Service is a convenient focal point for the various political elites who would govern us.

This manifests itself in a number of intractible contraditions, for example, we want the Health Service to be reformed but not near where we live, or we want more money to be spent on health but we don't want to pay more tax, or we want universal health insurance but we don't want to pay mandatory premia.

In the end of the day, the media have made people so cynical about the Health Service that it doesn't influence electoral outcomes anymore.

That's probably no harm, because it means that political influence over decision making in the service in kept to a minimum, which is probably the only reason why we have the basically adequate service that we have.

[Ard-Taoiseach]

Approximately 200 people packed into Wynns Hotel on 29 January, to attend a meeting hosted by the Socialist Party on the issue of the health crisis in Ireland.

Health crisis in Ireland?

There isn't a crisis. The service lags behind some areas (e.g. waiting lists) and excels in other areas (maternity care), and all in all, is about an average service as EU member states go. We rank 16th out of 27 in the EU Powerhouse Consumer Health index.

And that position in the chart is very much in a state of change, qtman. We went from next or near last in 2006 to 16th in 2007. With the volume of investment and reform presided over the health service by Mary Harney, Prof. Drumm et al. we will more than likely see further improvements in this league.

It is reminiscent of this country in 1995. We were rapidly moving from the last of the OECD(the poorest of the rich, as The Economist termed us) to the mid-table of Spain and Italy. We then, as we all know, continued our upward ascent and are now, bar one, the richest country on earth.

The Irish health system is in that position now. We've moved from the relegation zone of European health, and I see us winning the Powerhouse Cup within the next decade.

[Jolly Red Giant]

Approximately 200 people packed into Wynns Hotel on 29 January, to attend a meeting hosted by the Socialist Party on the issue of the health crisis in Ireland.

Health crisis in Ireland?

There isn't a crisis. The service lags behind some areas (e.g. waiting lists) and excels in other areas (maternity care), and all in all, is about an average service as EU member states go.

Being average by EU standards doesn't mean there isn't a crisis. Over the past 20 years neo-liberal policies have done serious damage to the nature of health care on a European wide basis.

My experience that demonstrates the nature of the crisis. My twelve year old daughter suffered a number of seizures over a two day period last July. She subsequntly spent three days in hospital undergoing a series of neurological tests. Over seven months later we are still waiting for an appointment to see the consultant to discuss the results of the tests. Incidentally if we were able to pay about €3,500 last July were would have had the tests and the results within three weeks. An our story is replicated by countless others around the country. If the Green Party don't recognise this (as they claimed to do before the election) they will disappear without a trace in a couple of years time.