Libertarian Ideas

[ThirdWay001]

The Libertarians are an interesting bunch, knowing we have a few conservatives here with a Libertarian tint "MJ and Andy", I wonder what the people on the left and right and Green and Liberal shades think of the idea:

Eliminate the welfare state and it will be replaced with more effective private welfare

While I dislike the current welfare system for:

(1) Doing NOTHING for the causes of poverty

(2) People who think it should be a right not a safety net

I think eliminating it would not result in the gap being filled with more effective private welfare.

[Crank]

I think it should be a right and not a safety net

Non-workers of the world unite!

[badinage]

those that are disabled, have an illness, have come from a broken home etc do not deserve to be looked after by the state?

are you suggesting that children of divorced or separated parents are equivilant to the disabled, and should not be required to work?

[Crank]

However, if someone is able bodied, fit and well, and has no excuse no to have a job (like in a country like this where there is an abundance of jobs), then they do not deserve to be looked after by the state.

You just killed Harry Potter.

[ThirdWay001]

Many of you make the mistake in thinking they hate the poor or something, the genuinly beleive that state welfare is ineffective against poverty.

I think it is too in terms of eliminating it, but it does lessen the impact of it.

I treat is a a safety net in hard times, not something somebody can decide to go on whenever they like.
Also if you treat it as a right you expect WAY to much from a system that will be cut and expanded depending on the government and economy.

[ThirdWay001]

Yes being able to get welfare you NEED is your civil right, but it is one granted to you by the government, unlike human rights which cannot be granted and taken away by the government, only recognised.

[ThirdWay001]

Damm I was hoping they would get on and defend their ideas..maybe they will see the thread later

[mjcoughlan]

If income is to be redistributed in the form of welfare well then the orientation of any good welfare system should be directed towards helping those who, through their own efforts, simply cannot support themselves.

The problem with many welfare states, and that includes Ireland, is that they very often encourage able bodied people to draw benefits but not to contribute anything to society. I feel that is wrong and that ought not be an automatic right.

We hear people say "I have my rights!" all the time. It's the verbal form of the two fingers to authority. People have rights, but they also have responsibilities. They have responsibilities primarily to themselves and their families. It's not through benevolence and entitlements that we should expect a roof over our heads and the dinner on the table every evening.

[TheBear]

To get rid of state welfare would be an evil against society.

An evil against society? Really? Or is this just rhetoric? It seems quite odd to call something evil in your first line and then go on to say that it's ok to carry this 'evil' out on certain members of society at the end of your point. Would you consider yourself to be an evil man, Shane?

So in effect those that are disabled, have an illness, have come from a broken home etc do not deserve to be looked after by the state?

I think you're missing the point, dear. It's that some people think of this care and support as a service generously provided by the state, rather than as a right. And anyway, do you think that everyone from a broken home automatically qualifies for state welfare? This is rather a difficult position to hold/defend/maintain when the nuclear family is declining in relevance in modern society. What may be judged to be a broken home today could be the standard in 10-15 years time. Also, illness? I've got a bit of a cold today: do I qualify for welfare? Seriously, though, I do suffer from a condition which interferes with my work, but I don't expect the state to support me because of it.

Theses are not very 'Christian' values for people that call themselves so-called 'Conservative Christians'.

Well, not all of these people do claim to be Christian Conservatives. We were talking about Libertarians here, remember? It's as ridiculous to lump the entirety of the right wing in together as it is to do the same for the left wing, or even for Republicans.

However, if someone is able bodied, fit and well, and has no excuse no to have a job (like in a country like this where there is an abundance of jobs), then they do not deserve to be looked after by the state.

See above. Also, you are of course ignoring societal issues which interfere with people's ability to get and keep a job, but you may have meant to do that? Does the state have no responsibility to adults who they have failed to adequately provide with the necessary skills (like reading and writing), training and education required for most employment opportunities in modern society?

[ThirdWay001]

Two things:

(1) Libertarians are not on the right wing as their social outlook and forign policy is VERY far left...they are off the traditional spectrum

(2) It is true that welfare states create a climate of "what can the government do for me"...as opposed to "what can I do about this myself"