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Thread: Evidence-based medical insurance could be affordable to all

  1. #1
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    Evidence-based medical insurance could be affordable to all

    Surgeons,as many doctors will tell you, tend to be overconfident in the efficacy of surgery. In the 1930s,lobotomies were commonly used on mental patients. Today,the costs racked up in unnecessary surgery may be in the hundreds of millions.

    Fortunately,the movement to "Evidence-based medicine" promises to save billions in unnecessary and dubious medical treatments. Business Week last year did a cover story “ MEDICAL GUESSWORK. From heart surgery to prostate care,the medical industry knows little about which treatments really work.” No doubt there are implications in this article for Irish medical practices.

    A large part of the article dealt with the career of Dr David Eddy,a heart surgeon,mathematician,operations researcher and health care economist, who has pioneered rigorous statistical approaches to evaluating medical treatments. His pioneering research has uncovered the inefficacy of many treatments.

    His research and that of others into evidence-based medicine encouraged American health care insurers and health care providers to refuse payment for many inefficacious and dubious treatments. But there is still enormous waste in the American health care system,as illustrated by the following excerpts from the article:

    [] “A great many doctors and health-care quality experts have come to endorse Eddy’s critique…most of these physicians say the proportion of medicine that has been proven effective is still outrageously low-in the range of 20 to 25%.”

    [] “Evidence says surgery does not fix the problem [aching back] over the long term any better than time,physical therapy and exercise.”
    Table of figures supplied for spinal surgery in the USA: 325,000 spinal fusion operations a year, $50,000 average cost of hospitalisation (for a total of $16 billion!)

    [] “Except for 3% of people with severe heart disease,treatment with drugs alone works just as well to extend life and prevent heart attacks as surgery does.”
    Table of figures for heart operations: 400,000 bypass surgeries, $20,000 average cost (for a total of $8 billion);1 million angioplasties,costs unquoted.

    [] “VESTED INTERESTS…More troubling,many doctors hold not just a professional interest in which treatments to offer,but a financial one as well.”

    [] “Yet middle-aged Americans are in far worse health than their British counterparts,who spend less than half as much and practice less intensive medicine,according to a new study.

    From the foregoing,one implication for Irish medical practices is that proposals for surgery must be subject to close,sceptical scrutiny and possible veto by the HSE,VHI and Quinn Health. Surgeons simply can not be trusted to act against their own self interest. Another obvious implication is that the funding agencies refuse to pay for dubious or unproven medical procedures.

    VHI and Quinn Health could use evidence-based medicine as a business model for low cost insurance,achieving savings on bloated payments for health care costs. The insurance could be priced cheaply to attract a mass market, providing very low cost medical insurance for the 55% or so of the Irish population which is not presently health insured.

    Insurers would make clear that such low cost insurance would pay only for medical treatments that are likely to work,especially in the case of expensive medical procedures. No doubt,this would antagonise the medical establishment. Like many American medical insurers,Irish insurers would have to train a highly professional,medically qualified claims staff in evidence-based medical statistics who would be capable of advising policyholders on their medical treatment options, and capable of challenging the judgements of doctors in prior consultations about permissible medical procedures.

    Of course,insurers could go too far in denying surgery and expensive treatments,so patients would need a legal right of appeal to an independent government appeals board.

  2. #2
    Politics.ie Regular seabhcan's Avatar
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    I mostly agree with you.

    And certainly, reducing treatment to 20% of the current level would reduce costs.

    However, there is nothing more irrational in this society than the mother of a sick child. Who would be willing to deny 80% of treatments based on the rational that they hadn't been absolutely proven to improve things in every case.
    "Who will bailout the IMF after FF is finished with them?"

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    Politics.ie Regular Galeforce's Avatar
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    Re: Evidence-based medical insurance could be affordable to

    Quote Originally Posted by patslatt
    Surgeons,as many doctors will tell you, tend to be overconfident in the efficacy of surgery. In the 1930s,lobotomies were commonly used on mental patients. Today,the costs racked up in unnecessary surgery may be in the hundreds of millions.

    Fortunately,the movement to "Evidence-based medicine" promises to save billions in unnecessary and dubious medical treatments. Business Week last year did a cover story “ MEDICAL GUESSWORK. From heart surgery to prostate care,the medical industry knows little about which treatments really work.” No doubt there are implications in this article for Irish medical practices.
    .
    Patslatt,

    i hate to burst your bubble but Evidence-based medicine has being practised for decades.

    However, there is a certain amount of Supplier induced demand in that if the procedure is covered by VHI/VIVAS etc, the doctor will find a way of doing it in order to get paid for it.

    Furthermore, if questioned about the necessity of the procedure, they will always justify it.
    Do the Shake'N'Vac and put the freshness back!

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    Re: Evidence-based medical insurance could be affordable to

    Quote Originally Posted by Galeforce
    Quote Originally Posted by patslatt
    Surgeons,as many doctors will tell you, tend to be overconfident in the efficacy of surgery. In the 1930s,lobotomies were commonly used on mental patients. Today,the costs racked up in unnecessary surgery may be in the hundreds of millions.

    Fortunately,the movement to "Evidence-based medicine" promises to save billions in unnecessary and dubious medical treatments. Business Week last year did a cover story “ MEDICAL GUESSWORK. From heart surgery to prostate care,the medical industry knows little about which treatments really work.” No doubt there are implications in this article for Irish medical practices.
    .
    Patslatt,

    i hate to burst your bubble but Evidence-based medicine has being practised for decades.

    However, there is a certain amount of Supplier induced demand in that if the procedure is covered by VHI/VIVAS etc, the doctor will find a way of doing it in order to get paid for it.

    Furthermore, if questioned about the necessity of the procedure, they will always justify it.
    You confirm my impression that VHI/VIVAS etc are a soft touch for mercenary doctors, partly because insurers are allowed to pass on the cost of unnecessary medical treatments in higher health insurance fees. It's time the Minister of Health took a tough line against increases in insurance fees to force insurers to introduce more efficient evidence-based medical screenings of proposed expensive medical treatments.

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    Re: Evidence-based medical insurance could be affordable to

    Quote Originally Posted by Galeforce
    Quote Originally Posted by patslatt
    Surgeons,as many doctors will tell you, tend to be overconfident in the efficacy of surgery. In the 1930s,lobotomies were commonly used on mental patients. Today,the costs racked up in unnecessary surgery may be in the hundreds of millions.

    Fortunately,the movement to "Evidence-based medicine" promises to save billions in unnecessary and dubious medical treatments. Business Week last year did a cover story “ MEDICAL GUESSWORK. From heart surgery to prostate care,the medical industry knows little about which treatments really work.” No doubt there are implications in this article for Irish medical practices.
    .
    Patslatt,

    i hate to burst your bubble but Evidence-based medicine has being practised for decades.
    =================
    Has it been practiced with the rigour referred to,using statistical modelling?

  6. #6
    Politics.ie Regular Galeforce's Avatar
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    Re: Evidence-based medical insurance could be affordable to

    Patslatt,

    i hate to burst your bubble but Evidence-based medicine has being practised for decades.
    =================
    Has it been practiced with the rigour referred to,using statistical modelling?[/quote]


    It has to a large extent but as you will agree, each medical case is different and you cannot have a "One fits all" approach.

    However, the doctors use this to their own financial advantage.
    Do the Shake'N'Vac and put the freshness back!

  7. #7
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    Re: Evidence-based medical insurance could be affordable to

    Quote Originally Posted by patslatt

    Insurers would make clear that such low cost insurance would pay only for medical treatments that are likely to work,especially in the case of expensive medical procedures.
    Why limit it especially to expensive medical procedures ? You ether accept the principle of evidence based medicine or you don’t. Otherwise it is quite simply a grubby cost cutting exercise with absolutely no regard to the patient's health or therapeutic outcomes.

    One wonders what would happen if evidence based medical principles were applied to Alternative Medicine, where solid evidence of efficacy is virtually non existent. Yet all the main insurers offer these treatments as part of their cover.

    "Either it is true that a medicine works or it isn't.
    It cannot be false in the ordinary sense but true in some 'alternative' sense." - Prof. Richard Dawkins

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    Re: Evidence-based medical insurance could be affordable to

    Quote Originally Posted by Fionn_McCool
    Quote Originally Posted by patslatt

    Insurers would make clear that such low cost insurance would pay only for medical treatments that are likely to work,especially in the case of expensive medical procedures.
    Why limit it especially to expensive medical procedures ? You ether accept the principle of evidence based medicine or you don’t. Otherwise it is quite simply a grubby cost cutting exercise with absolutely no regard to the patient's health or therapeutic outcomes.

    One wonders what would happen if evidence based medical principles were applied to Alternative Medicine, where solid evidence of efficacy is virtually non existent. Yet all the main insurers offer these treatments as part of their cover.

    "Either it is true that a medicine works or it isn't.
    It cannot be false in the ordinary sense but true in some 'alternative' sense." - Prof. Richard Dawkins
    Any medicine that isn't proven where evidence is available is dubious. For example, the tests for prostate cancer-blood tests and readings of sample tissue-are not based on science but on guesswork. THere are many false positives and false negatives.

    John Hopkins University,the leading expert in the field,hadn't collated the data up to a few years ago.

    The surgeons who do prostate cancer surgery,a very dangerous operation,won't mind. It's a lucrative business.

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    Re: Evidence-based medical insurance could be affordable to

    Quote Originally Posted by Fionn_McCool
    Otherwise it is quite simply a grubby cost cutting exercise with absolutely no regard to the patient's health or therapeutic outcomes.
    That's exactly what this sounds like. If given a choice between heart surgery, or taking drugs for the rest of my life, the insurance company might choose drugs, if that were the cheaper option for them, but I might well choose differently.

  10. #10
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    Re: Evidence-based medical insurance could be affordable to

    Quote Originally Posted by michael1965
    Quote Originally Posted by Fionn_McCool
    Otherwise it is quite simply a grubby cost cutting exercise with absolutely no regard to the patient's health or therapeutic outcomes.
    That's exactly what this sounds like. If given a choice between heart surgery, or taking drugs for the rest of my life, the insurance company might choose drugs, if that were the cheaper option for them, but I might well choose differently.
    I agree, wandering around with a 90% narrowing in a coronary artery accompanied by your personal mobile pharmacy is not a pleasant longterm prospect.

    I doubt if 'quality of life' was taken into account when they arrived at the angioplasty/surgery v drugs cost saving formula.

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