Originally Posted by Dearghoul

You both believe there's an essence before existence!

No, I'm saying that to assert such a thing you'd have to know it first. I'm not stating my position, I'm stating the position required to accept the logic of 'I am'.

Originally Posted by R3volution_R3ady

I disagree. This is precisely what the current school system does. Government organised education categorises children into groups and compartments i.e intelligent and those that are not. It's illogical because every child differs in talent, abilities and may not respond, as so many don't, to the inadequacies of regurgitation. There are people that live different lives today than what they could have simply because government has categorised them into the latter bracket by inconsistent, confusing and contradictory memory examinations. They're not told that there are a variety of answers to a question but that there is one, theirs. All they're doing, in essence, is ranking and rating every child compared with the next in one particular area, memorisation. There are no points for creatively or critical thinking.

Thus, we end up with adults trapped in unfulfilled lives because they've been told they're stupid by an out-dated, inefficient school system designed for a different century.

You wouldn't know it by the ever changing and improving Theories of Education but, we've been educating people formally for over 2500 years. We know how it's done and rote education plays a big part. How did you learn the times table otherwise? The problem in education is, generally speaking, non-involved students. Kids train at sports harder than they train education. It seems in education everyone wants a pain free, effort free system that will deliver results. No such system exists and will never will exist. Education is also largely self acquired, no one can give you it, you have to apply the effort and the effort must be along the correct line. Practice does not make perfect, perfect practice makes perfect. There's also nothing wrong with Irish schools, you outperform much of the world after all (everytime I visit Ireland I'm blown away at the depth and breath of education among people, intelligent discussion on varied topics is common). I do believe education should be more varied however, some (me, for example), would thrive in a Montessori method type environment; I have a massive inability to not learn what my mind is not turned to. On the other hand, when my mind/interest turns toward something I'll study it till I collapse. As the initial study item always entails other topics, I learn them as I go. If someone told me, "Learn Irish" and I had no interest, I could not do it. If I wanted to however, I'd pick it up quickly. Regarding logic, I couldn't agree more (though I do disagree about dropping religion to teach it), I taught my children critical thinking using the internet, had them google "fallacious arguments," then had them pick out a site they liked and bookmarked it. Then everyday/week had them learn an invalid argumentation. By the time they graduated high school they were way ahead of their peers. Here's an idea for you Irish lanuage fans, how about a web site with fallacious arguments in Latin, English and Irish? For example, post hoc, ergo hoc, after it, therefore, because of it, then however it would be said in the Irish. Someone would learn logic, Latin and Irish a little at a time, everytime! Just my 2 cents.

The OP is a nice starting point for all our our pet "the world is going to pot" theories, but it seems from this article that the study itself wasn't comparing like with like and is therefore essentially worthless.

The original Victorian subjects were either visitors to the London Science Museum who paid to participate, or philosophy students from the University of Chicago, whereas the modern study was a properly controlled random sample.

So people may be getting more stupid, but the study quoted in the OP doesn't seem to provide any evidence for this.

Originally Posted by jpc

More to the point the domination of electronic media and records suits the powers that be.
And the same for the perceived IQ issue.
Is society in a world wide context walking quiet happily into Orwells 1984?

Perhaps... but it won't look like the world Orwell depicted...

It will be a lot 'fluffier', more subtle and manipulative than that, and it will be dressed up in all sorts of spin about wanting to better understand the individual and tailor things to the individual's wants and needs etc...

And most of the data that will enable this to happen will be given freely by individuals to private sector corporations via social media and search engines (the Facebooks and Googles of this world) as they live their lives increasingly online and on their mobile gadgets etc.

If any government had the nerve to ask for a fraction of the info. people blaze all over the internet and give to these corporations people would be up in arms...

The real power of now and the future will be held less by governments and more by conglomerates...

Originally Posted by Spanner Island

Perhaps... but it won't look like the world Orwell depicted...

It will be a lot 'fluffier', more subtle and manipulative than that, and it will be dressed up in all sorts of spin about wanting to better understand the individual and tailor things to the individual's wants and needs etc...

And most of the data that will enable this to happen will be given freely by individuals to private sector corporations via social media and search engines (the Facebooks and Googles of this world) as they live their lives increasingly online and on their mobile gadgets etc.

If any government had the nerve to ask for a fraction of the info. people blaze all over the internet and give to these corporations people would be up in arms...

The real power of now and the future will be held less by governments and more by conglomerates...

I was thinking just that in Tesco the other day when I was behind a guy sporting a Che Guevara T shirt, idly dandling his Tesco loyalty card in his hand; His product of choice was proletarian revolution.

Originally Posted by LamportsEdge

Been thinking about this subject a bit and I wonder whether IQ is a good measurement of intelligence in the first place- never been convinced of that.

Also there is the issue I think of 'atomisation'. I had to borrow that word from Michel Houllebeq- he used it to describe a kind of effect he believes he sees in modern society and in social behaviour patterns.

I'll use it for want of a better word at the moment to describe a change in aspect and aspiration in the application of intelligence.

Previously it was all about an accumulation of knowledge. The classical education in Latin and Greek for those who could afford it were clear gateways to the knowledge necessary for a number of professions- teaching, medicine, politics, engineering, journalism and academia in general.

We may have seen the end of the polymath except for the unusual (and invariably self-taught) polymath. We now have streaming in education and what I perceive to be a lowering of standards driven by the need to qualify as many people as possible for the university statistics.

I suspect people previously were able to engage with the 'large data' of knowledge in a measured way but now we have information coming at us 24/7 unless we make a conscious effort to switch off from it.

I believe there may be a subconscious effort to switch off from information regarded as unnecessary to the immediate tasks at hand- and the immediate tasks at hand for many in society may themselves be the offshoot of an 'atomisation' process.

Streamed children may be becoming information-streamed adults. The attempt to absorb all available information would be fruitless and perhaps even more dangerous than exhausting so there may be a subconscious rejection by elements of society that would be regarded as educated and therefore more likely to be IQ tested.

We can really only rely on periodic measurements and draw inferences from the measurement of that data if the subject itself does not subtly move.

I would agree with most of this. Far too many people confuse being qualified in something, with being well educated.

There is a world of difference. I know some very well qualified people who are extremely uneducated.

Originally Posted by ocianain

You wouldn't know it by the ever changing and improving Theories of Education but, we've been educating people formally for over 2500 years. We know how it's done and rote education plays a big part. How did you learn the times table otherwise? The problem in education is, generally speaking, non-involved students. Kids train at sports harder than they train education. It seems in education everyone wants a pain free, effort free system that will deliver results. No such system exists and will never will exist. Education is also largely self acquired, no one can give you it, you have to apply the effort and the effort must be along the correct line. Practice does not make perfect, perfect practice makes perfect. There's also nothing wrong with Irish schools, you outperform much of the world after all (everytime I visit Ireland I'm blown away at the depth and breath of education among people, intelligent discussion on varied topics is common). I do believe education should be more varied however, some (me, for example), would thrive in a Montessori method type environment; I have a massive inability to not learn what my mind is not turned to. On the other hand, when my mind/interest turns toward something I'll study it till I collapse. As the initial study item always entails other topics, I learn them as I go. If someone told me, "Learn Irish" and I had no interest, I could not do it. If I wanted to however, I'd pick it up quickly. Regarding logic, I couldn't agree more (though I do disagree about dropping religion to teach it), I taught my children critical thinking using the internet, had them google "fallacious arguments," then had them pick out a site they liked and bookmarked it. Then everyday/week had them learn an invalid argumentation. By the time they graduated high school they were way ahead of their peers. Here's an idea for you Irish lanuage fans, how about a web site with fallacious arguments in Latin, English and Irish? For example, post hoc, ergo hoc, after it, therefore, because of it, then however it would be said in the Irish. Someone would learn logic, Latin and Irish a little at a time, everytime! Just my 2 cents.

You basically re-iterated what I said previously. I, too, am similar to you in the respect that if I'm not interested I just fall asleep. On the other hand, if I am interested in something I'll obsess over it. My point being that everyone is different and respond differently to different approaches. Currently, the education system we have in place marks everyone according to one grading profile. And of course, because of this, many individuals are lost and slip through the net. The was the point I was making. I disagreed with your opinion that stupid people should just be told they're stupid. I don't believe that. They've just been told they're stupid by an ineffective, inefficient and out-dated system.

Originally Posted by Man or Mouse

Judging by the trend of various polls in the media as to the popularity of certain political parties, I'd guess that there are a lot of stupid people in this county and increasing.

To all those who think FF are the cure for our problems, please PM me. I have some interesting oil here that can cure anything from piles to joblessness. Only €100 per bottle. And totally guaranteed if in some cases that doesn't work, is the smokes and daggers cure. THis is in fact a lecture reserved only for those who have already tried the snake - did I just say snake? - oil cure. I'm thinking of having that in Croker. Think I'll charge ye €250 for that once only option.

That doesn’t really add up. FF & FG commanded about 80% of the vote 1933; this fell to about 70% in 1944, it remained about 65% - 75% until the 1960s when it rose to around 80% again. It stayed around 80-85% until 1987 and after this it stayed around 65% to 75% till 2007. The combined total then takes a nosedive and the two parties commanded less that than 54% of the vote in 2011. The polls have them commanding around 52% of the vote now. I’ve no data to back this up but from what I can see the huge bulk of the FF&FG vote comes from those over 55 and the younger generation appear to be more capable of engaging their brains when deciding who to vote for. The decision making isn’t always very impressive but it’s an improvement on the ‘my family took this side in the early 1920s so based on that I’m going to vote for this party in the 2010s.’

Originally Posted by R3volution_R3ady

You basically re-iterated what I said previously. I, too, am similar to you in the respect that if I'm not interested I just fall asleep. On the other hand, if I am interested in something I'll obsess over it. My point being that everyone is different and respond differently to different approaches. Currently, the education system we have in place marks everyone according to one grading profile. And of course, because of this, many individuals are lost and slip through the net. The was the point I was making. I disagreed with your opinion that stupid people should just be told they're stupid. I don't believe that. They've just been told they're stupid by an ineffective, inefficient and out-dated system.

A lot of the Irish I know are like us, so much so I wonder if the Irish are wired differently. Everyone I exposed to the Montessori philosophy liked it. The problem is, there's only 4 million people in Ireland, of those approx 2 million work. There's only so much money to go around. Could the system be modified? I think so, but remember, education never ends. Buy Maria Montessori's book and apply the methods to yourself, see if you respond to them. I know I did. Myself, I would like to see different schools dedicated to different languages/arts. Imagine learning either Greek, Latin, Irish, French, German, from a young age. If you did nothing more than graduate from secondary school you'ld be ready for the world. More variation is no doubt needed

Originally Posted by ocianain

A lot of the Irish I know are like us, so much so I wonder if the Irish are wired differently. Everyone I exposed to the Montessori philosophy liked it. The problem is, there's only 4 million people in Ireland, of those approx 2 million work. There's only so much money to go around. Could the system be modified? I think so, but remember, education never ends. Buy Maria Montessori's book and apply the methods to yourself, see if you respond to them. I know I did. Myself, I would like to see different schools dedicated to different languages/arts. Imagine learning either Greek, Latin, Irish, French, German, from a young age. If you did nothing more than graduate from secondary school you'ld be ready for the world. More variation is no doubt needed

Forget Irish.

We only need to learn one language, German.