Public sector unions' impact on government services

[NeilW]

The blog began quoting facts and estimates from the UK state pensions funding situation which looks dire.

Firstly you seem to be talking about the occupational pensions of public sector workers rather than state pensions which all workers qualify for so please use the terminology of public sector pensions as it makes it easier to follow. Secondly public sector pensions in the UK are unfunded and hence can hardly be described as having a "dire funding situation".

If the UK can't get a grip on runaway pension costs

The UK government is in the process of reforming all the major public sector pension schemes. Normal pension ages are rising to 65, the civil service is getting a new career-average (rather than final salary) scheme and risk-sharing proposals to contain the cost of future improvements in mortality are being introduced. In what way does the UK not have a grip on pension costs?

[smiffy]

It's called joining the dots! The blog began quoting facts and estimates from the UK state pensions funding situation which looks dire. The UK government is a democratic,overcentralised dictatorship of the UK prime minister. If the UK can't get a grip on runaway pension costs, how can our extreme version of proportioonal representation government do so? Our government is so close to the people, it runs scared of any vocal organised group down to the village pump level.

You see, this is all assertion with no facts to back it up? Ronanr has, on a number of occasions, asked you a very pertinent question about public sector pensions in Ireland. If you're not able to answer that, and the best you've come to an answer so far is to describe the system as 'opaque', then why should anyone take anything you say seriously?

[adamirer]

Well at least its better than the funnyman who said that public servants, (teachers, nurses etc) don't pay tax. They 'merely' return the money to the Government. That was classic.

The pensions are good in the public service, but being 30 its hard for me to really think 35 years ahead. I'd point out that the starting graduate salaries in teaching, the civil service and most areas, isn't that impressive. Indeed, it took me until last year to hit the level of salary I was on when in the private sector at 2000-2001. The starting EO salary is € 30,628 - so lets not get carried away with the idea that the wages are fabulous.

On the pensions, I pay 6.5% per pay cheque into the pension (which is non-optional I think), so not like I pay nothing in.

[MarD]

The Benchmarking process was a joke. As a private sector worker in a non-unionised environment I look at the public sector with envy and some amount of disgust because as a tax payer I'm contributing to guaranteed pension entitlements that most private sector employees will never see and I'm paying 12% with AVCs for the priviledge.

And don't tell me I don't know what I'm talking about because I get a pretty clear picture from my state-sector employed partner and friends who milk the system day in day out.
Mileage expenses in State jobs much better, priviledge days - what a bloody joke.
The Civil service has a rate for foreign city travel, regardless of how cheap a two bit hotel you choose ( or even if you stay with a mate), you get the approved rate without receipt - another bloody joke.
There aren't any prviate companies that would siurvive offering those types of benefits to employees.

[mollox]

A friend of mine, an electronics engineer, was laid off by his US employer about two years ago but was almost immediately employed by a Co Council in a professional capacity.
He can't believe the difference in the pace of life, productivity expected etc.. And his pay and conditions - particularly pension - are better than he had in the private sector.

He laughingly told me recently that when his wife described his new position to her sister, she responded that it sounded like he was on some type of pre-retirement posting.

[patslatt]

The blog began quoting facts and estimates from the UK state pensions funding situation which looks dire.

...Secondly public sector pensions in the UK are unfunded and hence can hardly be described as having a "dire funding situation".

If the UK can't get a grip on runaway pension costs

The UK government is in the process of reforming all the major public sector pension schemes. Normal pension ages are rising to 65, the civil service is getting a new career-average (rather than final salary) scheme and risk-sharing proposals to contain the cost of future improvements in mortality are being introduced. In what way does the UK not have a grip on pension costs?

My blog http://www.politics.ie/viewtopic.php?t=25392 quotes some facts and actuarial projections in a Times article that indicate runaway pension costs despite the reforms. The "process of reforming" you mention ran into fierce trade union opposition. It seems those reforms will be introduced extremely gradually.

Unfunded pensions are direly funded ie zero funding!

[tic tac man]

The Benchmarking process was a joke. As a private sector worker in a non-unionised environment I look at the public sector with envy and some amount of disgust because as a tax payer I'm contributing to guaranteed pension entitlements that most private sector employees will never see and I'm paying 12% with AVCs for the priviledge.

And don't tell me I don't know what I'm talking about because I get a pretty clear picture from my state-sector employed partner and friends who milk the system day in day out.
Mileage expenses in State jobs much better, priviledge days - what a bloody joke.
The Civil service has a rate for foreign city travel, regardless of how cheap a two bit hotel you choose ( or even if you stay with a mate), you get the approved rate without receipt - another bloody joke.
There aren't any prviate companies that would siurvive offering those types of benefits to employees.

If you're paying AVCs, you're paying for your own pension. In what way will you never see it? As the V stands for voluntary, I suggest you stop paying it if you feel you're being ripped off. But why you're blaming this on public sector workers confuses me.

[smiffy]

My blog http://www.politics.ie/viewtopic.php?t=25392 quotes some facts and actuarial projections in a Times article that indicate runaway pension costs despite the reforms.

In the United Kingdom. And you're ignoring the points NeilW made (unless you're saying that those new provisions aren't actually in place. Is this your claim)?

Would you care to address the question Ronanr put to you in relation to Irish public sector pensions?

Also, please stop saying 'blog'.

[NeilW]

My blog http://www.politics.ie/viewtopic.php?t=25392 quotes some facts and actuarial projections in a Times article that indicate runaway pension costs despite the reforms. The "process of reforming" you mention ran into fierce trade union opposition. It seems those reforms will be introduced extremely gradually.

Is that really the case or are you just making it up? I am unaware of any actuarial review or cashflow projection of any UK public sector pension scheme which has been undertaken since the reform process was completed. Should I contact the actuaries to the main UK public sector pension schemes (Hewitt, Bacon and Woodrow in the case of the civil service or the Government Actuary's Deptartment in the case of the other schemes) for details or are you just making this up?

Unfunded pensions are direly funded ie zero funding!

Right, so your knowledge of this area is only slightly more than zero (and comprehensively proves how dangerous very little knowledge can be).

[patslatt]

Well at least its better than the funnyman who said that public servants, (teachers, nurses etc) don't pay tax. They 'merely' return the money to the Government. That was classic.

The pensions are good in the public service, but being 30 its hard for me to really think 35 years ahead. I'd point out that the starting graduate salaries in teaching, the civil service and most areas, isn't that impressive. Indeed, it took me until last year to hit the level of salary I was on when in the private sector at 2000-2001. The starting EO salary is € 30,628 - so lets not get carried away with the idea that the wages are fabulous.

On the pensions, I pay 6.5% per pay cheque into the pension (which is non-optional I think), so not like I pay nothing in.

6.5% a year of your pay over 35 years = 2.3 years of average salary. Chances are if you live to 65,your life expectancy will be 80 or so, indicating 15 years of pension. Quite an enviable return;even more so given the adjustment in annual pension matching pay increases of your department,which should add maybe another 2.5 years of pension, for a total of 17.5 years.