Originally Posted by Clareman

Entry level is currently 156k in Ireland for the commonest contract type. Median age of current consultants must be 45-50 so it would take > 15 years for the reduction to work it's way into the system in the way outlined yesterday, the recession may be over by then.

I was comparing the public-only NHS consultant pay with the Irish equivalent: the Type A contract. I realise that there are far more type B consultants, but then you wouldn't be comparing apples with apples.

Perhaps once the Croke Park agreement lapses, the legacy issues might be dealt with and the new-entrant salaries and/or additinal payments can then be made more attractive. Bottom line is that paying consultants between €110k and, say, €160k is a lot more affordable than paying them €150k to €200+k as at present. That should be where we're moving towards.

More affordable consultant salaries may, once the public finances have recovered somewhat, lead to more consultant posts being created and thus a better career path for medical graduates, as well as the consultant-provided health service that the public has been promised.

Info on Pay for doctors in the UK.

Medical pay

Pay for doctors - NHS Careers

And info on nursnig pay scales.

Pay for nurses - NHS Careers

Agenda for change - pay rates - NHS Careers

Originally Posted by damus

Info on Pay for doctors in the UK.

Medical pay

Pay for doctors - NHS Careers

And info on nursnig pay scales.

Pay for nurses - NHS Careers

Agenda for change - pay rates - NHS Careers

Pay scale information is interesting for prospective employees, but as we are talking about the total and average cost of these employees, you need a sense of the median and/or mean incomes, including allowances etc. For the NHS, estimates of these figures are available here, as I previously referenced.

Originally Posted by drzhivago

How much does the state pay to subsidise nurse education, and dont say off topic because this is a thread about consultants and again you are bringing medical education of students into this now

IF there were appropriate working conditions and post-graduate education then these individuals would choose to remain and work in Ireland

If they are going to be treated like slave labour where their rights and entitlements to breaks/days off and even pay for all hours worked is to be ignored then how can you force them to stay

If they cant guarantee an Intern JOB to all of them in time for them to make plans for working that year can you blame them for making plans to secure employment for themselves in another jurisdiction who funnily enough doesnt even know the person but is clued in enough to recruit in advance for their posts unlike this system which waits until a few weeks before work is supposed to begin and tells over a hundred of them there is no work

There are over 800 graduates per year now leaving irish medical schools

There are around 500 intern places, if they are filled, some hospitals do not fill the posts and use the money for other reasons

How many nursing students leave per year after graduation, should we also be indenturing them or expecting them to pay back for what the state has invested in their education to date

Maybe we should.

Originally Posted by hurling_lad

I was comparing the public-only NHS consultant pay with the Irish equivalent: the Type A contract. I realise that there are far more type B consultants, but then you wouldn't be comparing apples with apples.

Perhaps once the Croke Park agreement lapses, the legacy issues might be dealt with and the new-entrant salaries and/or additinal payments can then be made more attractive. Bottom line is that paying consultants between €110k and, say, €160k is a lot more affordable than paying them €150k to €200+k as at present. That should be where we're moving towards.

More affordable consultant salaries may, once the public finances have recovered somewhat, lead to more consultant posts being created and thus a better career path for medical graduates, as well as the consultant-provided health service that the public has been promised.

Is there such a thing as public only contracts in the UK? I thought they were allowed to work privately when they finished work in the public system?

We have already had a number of Irish consultants leave to go back to work in the NHS

Originally Posted by nakatomi

Is there such a thing as public only contracts in the UK? I thought they were allowed to work privately when they finished work in the public system?

We have already had a number of Irish consultants leave to go back to work in the NHS

The NHS usually employs based on e.g., 11 sessions, similar to the old Common Contract in ireland. Outside of this, you do what you like. You can also reduce public sessions and do private clinics; for example, it might mean dropping 2 sessions public and then doing private.

The HSE wants top down control of medical specialists; the contract in Ireland prevents you working for anyone except the HSE, and any private practice even outside your working hrs are forbidden, as they also reserve the right to roster you whenever they (the HSE managers) want. It's a completely ridiculous contract for anyone with self-respect. As the down-trodden self-pitying is endemic among a lot of doctors in Ireland (that stay in Ireland), it suits perfectly TBH.

I remember when the training grant was being cut; callign around, most people were quite accepting having drank the Kool Aid. The complete ignorance and self-centred delusion is endemic in Ireland IMO. What's worse, is that the propaganda is so successful that even with new, sh1tty contracts, less money and 24/7 working, the ego of the current generation will prevent them from accepting that it's completely awful; it will be regarded as "still" (lol!) better than anywhere else. The ones that are more alert, and open-minded, will leave and unlikely come back.

In a sense, it's better this way. People might sit on the fence abroad and take upa post they don't want based on what may be perceived as okay salaries and terms of employment. As they see now 50% salary cuts within 4 years and unilateral contract changes being enforced without negotiation, it makes the decision to move and stay abroad easier. Whoever is left, no matter the standard, will be a real sh1t-eater; i.e., someone who will tolerate being taken complete advantage of by the HSE and hospital management. Much better for the HSE, very bad for medical standards and patient care but it's clear that those are not priorities in Ireland based on the media, public attitude and voting patterns.

Originally Posted by drzhivago

How many nursing students leave per year after graduation, should we also be indenturing them or expecting them to pay back for what the state has invested in their education to date

Yes, that's where student loans come in. Why should we be spending money helping another country's health service?

Originally Posted by Keith-M

Yes, that's where student loans come in. Why should we be spending money helping another country's health service?

Or - big step here - value healthcare, education and create attractive working environments that local graduates value highly. But when they read the newspapers and listen to the radio, it's clear, if you work in healthcare or education, you are unwanted, or at the very least, your opinion doesn't matter squat. Moving down the level of civilisation will be difficult in Ireland; South African future.

Originally Posted by frequency

The NHS usually employs based on e.g., 11 sessions, similar to the old Common Contract in ireland. Outside of this, you do what you like. You can also reduce public sessions and do private clinics; for example, it might mean dropping 2 sessions public and then doing private.

The HSE wants top down control of medical specialists; the contract in Ireland prevents you working for anyone except the HSE, and any private practice even outside your working hrs are forbidden, as they also reserve the right to roster you whenever they (the HSE managers) want. It's a completely ridiculous contract for anyone with self-respect. As the down-trodden self-pitying is endemic among a lot of doctors in Ireland (that stay in Ireland), it suits perfectly TBH.

I remember when the training grant was being cut; callign around, most people were quite accepting having drank the Kool Aid. The complete ignorance and self-centred delusion is endemic in Ireland IMO. What's worse, is that the propaganda is so successful that even with new, sh1tty contracts, less money and 24/7 working, the ego of the current generation will prevent them from accepting that it's completely awful; it will be regarded as "still" (lol!) better than anywhere else. The ones that are more alert, and open-minded, will leave and unlikely come back.

In a sense, it's better this way. People might sit on the fence abroad and take upa post they don't want based on what may be perceived as okay salaries and terms of employment. As they see now 50% salary cuts within 4 years and unilateral contract changes being enforced without negotiation, it makes the decision to move and stay abroad easier. Whoever is left, no matter the standard, will be a real sh1t-eater; i.e., someone who will tolerate being taken complete advantage of by the HSE and hospital management. Much better for the HSE, very bad for medical standards and patient care but it's clear that those are not priorities in Ireland based on the media, public attitude and voting patterns.

Dr Brendan Drumm,former head of the HSE,may have advocated that the HSE prevent its salaried consultants from doing private work,based on his experience with the Canadian health care system. In Canada,consultants doing private work can't work in state hospitals. By preventing consultants from being paid out of two pockets,both public and private, and by preventing private access to public hospitals,the Canadian system undermines private health care and preserves public monopoly. That works reasonably well as the system is well planned and funded.

However,as demonstrated in the UK,private hospitals can provide extremely efficient service to the NHS in hip and knee replacements and they could do a lot more if the NHS super monopoly were challenged.

According to a 2009 report consultants charged the following for private consultations
Some consultants charging €200 per visit - irishhealth.com

Forty-four per cent said €150 to €200, while 32% said €100 to €149.
Only 13% said the consultant charged them less than €100 while 11% said their consultant had charged them more than €200 for a consultation.

Here's what plumbers were making for leaky taps ...
Smart Consumer: Want to save a fortune on the cost of plumbing? Then do it yourself! - Smart Consumer, Lifestyle - Independent.ie

At the peak of the Celtic Tiger, the company I worked for had a €50 call-out charge on top of our €75 hourly rate.
"That's €125, plus VAT, just to fix a leaking tap. We'd get about eight of those calls a week at the height of the boom," says Ray.

In Ireland a 5min job with a FAS qualification is valued along the same lines as the work of a highly qualified medical practitioner.