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  1. #181
    derryman derryman is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mercurial View Post
    Why is it that the suicidal person has no right to be selfish, but his friends, family and even unborn future grandchildren do have a right to be selfish?

    If my partner was suffering intense and incurable pain and wanted to end his life, would it not be profoundly selfish of me to insist that he remain alive and in pain merely because it would cause me pain if he were to die?
    well that obviously went over your head.
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  2. #182
    Bonsai Experiment Bonsai Experiment is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by harshreality View Post
    Dear Bonsai Experiment,

    If I ever get severely injured, be it from a car accident or perhaps trapped under an avalanche of young wans who have been chasing me, and said injuries prevent me from living a full and happy life or prevent others from doing so. Then I would utilise my right to death and fail to see how it would have anything to do with anyone.

    The sky would not fall in and the world would not collapse so why deny someone their right to death in such a scenario?
    Yeh,

    I'm not denying anyone any right to death, for the simple reason that it does not exist , so I cant stop someone from exercising something that doesn't exist. Unless you are going to reduce the word right to mean anything that you are able to do. For example : ... I have a right to kick the shiite out of the young fella who slapped my daughter.
    Of course you dont .. doesnt mean anyone is going to be able to stop you.
    My position is that there is no basic or inalienable Human Right to commit suicide, I am not interested in discussing whether there should or shouldn't be at this stage, I am stating that such a right does not exist. If you continue to throw around the word "right" without affording any quantitative meaning to it , then it makes nonsense of the argument and belittles the actual Human rights that we have recognised and enshrined in the declaration.
    Also,the shy would not collapse if I stopped you killing yourself either, so there.

    Yours Sincerely.
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  3. #183
    Bonsai Experiment Bonsai Experiment is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mitsui2 View Post
    You have remarkable faith in the written word, given the well-known reluctance of paper to refuse ink. Which declaration of human rights (as I asked before I think)?
    Its not faith if you can see it in front of you, it has been recorded as being recognised as a Human Rights , the right to life,
    Article 3.

    • Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person.


    The Universal Declaration of Human Rights
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  4. #184
    Bonsai Experiment Bonsai Experiment is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mercurial View Post
    The fact that it's not listed explicitly in some particular documents has no bearing on whether or not it is a human right, especially since you recognized that such documents recognise rather than establish the rights we possess.
    Yes and I have said on numerous occasions that there are two options open to you to win this argument. Show were it is already recognsied, or prove that it is an inalienable right. You have done neither.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mercurial View Post
    Additionally, we can derive the right to suicide from the right to liberty, which is a right that you recognise above.
    What about the Inalienable Human Right to take crack cocaine.



    Quote Originally Posted by Mercurial View Post
    It does not follow from the claim that my body was created by a higher power, that my body remains the property of a higher power.
    true , but it does not follow either that just because you are in it , you own it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mercurial View Post
    In any case, human rights cannot be based on religious foundations if you want to justify them to other people; human rights need to be based on foundations which all reasonable people could accept.
    And all reasonable people could not accept a right to suicide, so I think you just defeated yourself.
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  5. #185
    Sailor Sailor is online now

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bonsai Experiment View Post
    Yeh,

    I'm not denying anyone any right to death, for the simple reason that it does not exist , so I cant stop someone from exercising something that doesn't exist. Unless you are going to reduce the word right to mean anything that you are able to do. For example : ... I have a right to kick the shiite out of the young fella who slapped my daughter.
    Of course you dont .. doesnt mean anyone is going to be able to stop you.
    My position is that there is no basic or inalienable Human Right to commit suicide, I am not interested in discussing whether there should or shouldn't be at this stage, I am stating that such a right does not exist. If you continue to throw around the word "right" without affording any quantitative meaning to it , then it makes nonsense of the argument and belittles the actual Human rights that we have recognised and enshrined in the declaration.
    Also,the shy would not collapse if I stopped you killing yourself either, so there.

    Yours Sincerely.
    A right does not have to be enshrined in some law to have a moral status and a de facto existence. There was once no defined right to freedom from slavery - but the right has always existed, likewise the right to suicide.
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  6. #186
    Al Gebra Al Gebra is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bonsai Experiment View Post

    true , but it does not follow either that just because you are in it, you own it
    This is b0lloxology of the highest order.
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  7. #187
    Bonsai Experiment Bonsai Experiment is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sailor View Post
    A right does not have to be enshrined in some law to have a moral status and a de facto existence. There was once no defined right to freedom from slavery - but the right has always existed, likewise the right to suicide.
    Look.. an Inalienable Human Right exists by virtue of our birth into the Human Race. Everyone has them. They are the obvious cornerstones of free and democratic society which unfortunately are so neglected too often around the world. The right to Life , Freedom, Association, Legal recognition etc etc. the right to commit suicide is not one of them.
    You can bang the table all you like it still wont be one.
    Why? because its not something that is obviously an inalienable requirement too the dignity of your human existence. You may feel that it is, if yuo want you could write to the UN or something and see will they include it in the declaration. Don't be to surprised if they dont agree with you, a lot of people will be amazed that you even think it is a "right".
    Now.. your other option is for you to campaign to have it made a civil right. You might have better look with that and I wouldn't agree with your campaign but I doubt I would oppose it.
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  8. #188
    Sailor Sailor is online now

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bonsai Experiment View Post
    Look.. an Inalienable Human Right exists by virtue of our birth into the Human Race. Everyone has them. They are the obvious cornerstones of free and democratic society which unfortunately are so neglected too often around the world. The right to Life , Freedom, Association, Legal recognition etc etc. the right to commit suicide is not one of them.
    You can bang the table all you like it still wont be one.
    Why? because its not something that is obviously an inalienable requirement too the dignity of your human existence. You may feel that it is, if yuo want you could write to the UN or something and see will they include it in the declaration. Don't be to surprised if they dont agree with you, a lot of people will be amazed that you even think it is a "right".
    Now.. your other option is for you to campaign to have it made a civil right. You might have better look with that and I wouldn't agree with your campaign but I doubt I would oppose it.
    Society evolves new rights all the time - the absence of a formal definition of a right is merely a temporary aberration awaiting correction while the views of the less enlightened catch up with those of the more enlightened thinkers in our society. Did a woman's right to participation in the democratic process not exist prior to women being enfranchised?
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  9. #189
    Bonsai Experiment Bonsai Experiment is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sailor View Post
    There was once no defined right to freedom from slavery - but the right has always existed, likewise the right to suicide.
    The IHR to not be a slave exist for obvious reasons,and yes, in a moral sense we know it always did .i.e it's compellingly obvious.
    The IHR to commit suicide does not exist and morally we also know why not. i.e. it's not compellingly obvious.
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  10. #190
    Sailor Sailor is online now

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bonsai Experiment View Post
    The IHR to not be a slave exist for obvious reasons,and yes, in a moral sense we know it always did .i.e it's compellingly obvious.
    The IHR to commit suicide does not exist and morally we also know why not. i.e. it's not compellingly obvious.
    No - now you're differentiating based purely on your own personal views - not the universal authority to which you were appealing earlier. Therefore, there is no universal statement of rights that is in anyway relevant to this discussion.
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