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  1. #181
    damus damus is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Doyle View Post
    Unfortunately there will always be loopholes in any welfare system and there will be unscrupulous people who will exploit them.

    If you suspend welfare completely, how do they live? Cutting that welfare marginally or having them pay the amount they defrauded back over time seems to be the least worst option.

    Anyway hopefully with the processing methodology becoming increasing more rigorous and efficient these type of frauds should become far more rare.
    Let them rely on the old subsidiarity principle . I do think that there needs to be an expressed understanding of the rights and responsibilities in claiming welfare....so with that right comes the responsibility to abide by the rules and not to commit fraud. Forfeiture or disqualification and full repayment would be my preferred model of deterrent.
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  2. #182
    Berty Berty is offline

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    While this crackdown of welfare fraud is very welcome, what steps are being taken bring the banksters who contributed to bringing this country to its knees to justice?
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  3. #183
    damus damus is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Berty View Post
    While this crackdown of welfare fraud is very welcome, what steps are being taken bring the banksters who contributed to bringing this country to its knees to justice?
    We will still be asking that question in 20 years.....
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  4. #184
    Odyessus Odyessus is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by damus View Post
    Obviously, the claim is still open and continues to be paid until such time that whoever is their next of kin decides to notify the DSP of their death. Not so long ago they highlighted that some of the overpayments related to pensions that continued to be paid out three months after the claimants death....now obviously that would raise questions about the intentions of those continuing to claim re fraud. But I don't think its high on the bereaved things to do list to start notifying the department of the claimants death within one to three weeks after the claimants death....so in that situation I wouldn't regard that to be fraud. Its also highlights a systems failure by their inherent inability to link into the registry.
    But it is on their list of things to do to call at the post office every week to collect the money. It is disingenuous to claim this is just an administrative error rather than fraud. Just because no-one is prosecuted or penalised does not mean that everything that can be characterised as "administrative error" is not in fact people receiving money they know they are not entitled to.

    Would the person in the above scenario have continued to claim the money every week if the matter had not been brought to the attention of the Department by someone else? The answer is probably "yes". Will anyone be prosecuted or penalised? The answer is probably "no."

    Does this mean the person involved was not knowingly claiming money fraudulently? The answer is "no."
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  5. #185
    Odyessus Odyessus is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by damus View Post
    I suppose we'll have to wait for another Oireachtas report to get the actual breakdown of how much was attributed to fraud as opposed to error.
    It is often almost impossible to prove fraud in these maters, so they the Department rarely goes to the expense of trying. When they start asking awkward questions of the claimant, the claim is often immediately dropped. The Department is usually content to leave it at that.
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  6. #186
    southwestkerry southwestkerry is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Impartial_Eclipse View Post
    THE EXTENT of the cultural shift in reporting suspected welfare fraud will be revealed today when Minister for Social Protection Joan Burton gives a breakdown of the record 17,000 anonymous tip-offs made to the authorities last year.

    The increase in members of the public reporting alleged welfare cheating has seen the number of tip-offs given to officials by email, phone and letter rise from 6,429 in 2009 to 12,640 in 2010 and 16,920 last year.

    [..]

    Reports relating to alleged breaches of the cohabitation rules for single parents (a claimant must not live with a partner if they claim to live alone) numbered 4,470 last year – a jump of 930 from the 3,540 reported in 2010. Reports relating to employer issues rose from 380 in 2010 to 490 last year.

    [..]

    In 2005, just 621 anonymous reports were received, indicating that the tolerance for breaches of social welfare payment rules has dropped, perhaps as the effects of the recession continue to be felt.

    Ms Burton suggested at the end of last year that the “sharp increase” could be interpreted as a “cultural shift” in Irish attitudes.

    Source:
    Huge rise in number reporting suspected social welfare fraud - The Irish Times - Thu, Feb 16, 2012
    17000 tip off's but how many proved to be false tip off's in my mind a lot off people like to stir things up for Biddy or Mick next door. With so many tips off too its no wounder it takes 9 months to process a claim for disability allowance or in other. To my mind the country would be better off looking at the top down when it comes to fraud and no drive home the rules for some one claiming an extra 10 euro a week.
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  7. #187
    damus damus is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Odyessus View Post
    But it is on their list of things to do to call at the post office every week to collect the money. It is disingenuous to claim this is just an administrative error rather than fraud. Just because no-one is prosecuted or penalised does not mean that everything that can be characterised as "administrative error" is not in fact people receiving money they know they are not entitled to.

    Would the person in the above scenario have continued to claim the money every week if the matter had not been brought to the attention of the Department by someone else? The answer is probably "yes". Will anyone be prosecuted or penalised? The answer is probably "no."

    Does this mean the person involved was not knowingly claiming money fraudulently? The answer is "no."
    Its not disingenuous at all....because not all sw payments are physically collected every week by claimants in the post office....there are many pensioners, carers and people who are in receipt of illness related payments who get paid through their bank accounts. That's how payments in the advent of an OAP can continue to be paid after their death. In answer to your question about whether those people would continue to claim....well some of the claims after a death would be intentional and amount to fraud....and they would only be picked up by the Department on control and audit reviews....but in many circumstances the Department becomes aware of the overpayment when the families themselves eventually get around to notifying the authorities of the death and dealing with the Estates of the deceased. I also dealt with a case a couple of years ago regarding an overpayment relating to administrative delay and it involved a claimant who continued to receive their weekly DA payment for over one month and that was despite the fact that they notified the Department prior to commencing employment that they wished to close their claim. The point I am trying to make is not all cases that the Department classifies as fraud comes down to fraud....
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  8. #188
    Dub guy Dub guy is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by ruserious View Post
    By getting friends to spy on friends and neighbours on neighbours? That is not the sort of civic duty I envisage and I have contributed my bit to this country to make that judgement.
    Are you saying you condone welfare fraud?
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  9. #189
    southwestkerry southwestkerry is offline
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    PS
    What about all the funny accountancy doing the rounds in the civil service, all those miles been added up, all the petrol receipts the over night stays and so on, I bet a pretty euro they would be many a hair raised if the service was investigated with the same rigger as welfare.
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  10. #190
    niall78 niall78 is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by southwestkerry View Post
    PS
    What about all the funny accountancy doing the rounds in the civil service, all those miles been added up, all the petrol receipts the over night stays and so on, I bet a pretty euro they would be many a hair raised if the service was investigated with the same rigger as welfare.
    Time to set the informers on the PS. It's about time we had citizens ratting out PS workers who are screwing allowances, taking time off without certs, checking if they are taking long lunches, making sure they aren't leaving early. If it runs like this welfare informing no evidence will be needed just the impression of wrongdoing.

    I know a guy who plays golf every Friday afternoon when he should be working. How can I report him? My mrs also knows this girl, who knows a guy, who takes an early lunch everyday. Can we get informants set up for the PS please?

    The guy next door has a nice car and goes on holiday, a PS worker. He'd be the first I'd report, he makes me jealous.
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