Is HSE ambulance service equivalent to an illegal closed shop?

[patslatt]

Closed shops in which only union members are allowed to work have been illegal in the UK since the late 1980s and also illegal under EU law.In the Sunday Times article "Ready for a mortgage emergency", Lifeline Ambulance Service owner David Hall quoted Price Waterhouse Cooper research that said the HSE could save between €18 million and €30 million a year by using private ambulances for routine transfers. So it is shocking that the HSE is proposing to add to employment in its in-house ambulance service which is SIPTU organised even though private contractor ambulance services the HSE uses are cheaper. Assuming the latter are not union organised,this suggests the creation or restoration of a closed shop in which management authority to contract out services is denied.Faced with the loss of 40 per cent of its business,"Lifeline has filed a legal action,claiming the move raises competition issues".

Given the desperate shortage of money for front line services,the HSE should be doing its utmost to achieve the cost savings mentioned above. If it doesn't,it should change its name to Siptu & Impact Workers Co-op!

[neiphin]

troll

[phenomking]

no the national ambulance is not a closed shop and if it were why are so many people joining it SIPTU only has the national nogotating rights with ambulance services maybe if the private ambulance service let their staff have the freedom to join a trade union and paid them desent rates of pay, made sure they were adiquility trained and decent working conditions maybe more people would go work for them

[Expose the lot of them]

Closed shops in which only union members are allowed to work have been illegal in the UK since the late 1980s and also illegal under EU law.In the Sunday Times article "Ready for a mortgage emergency", Lifeline Ambulance Service owner David Hall quoted Price Waterhouse Cooper research that said the HSE could save between €18 million and €30 million a year by using private ambulances for routine transfers. So it is shocking that the HSE is proposing to add to employment in its in-house ambulance service which is SIPTU organised even though private contractor ambulance services the HSE uses are cheaper. Assuming the latter are not union organised,this suggests the creation or restoration of a closed shop in which management authority to contract out services is denied.Faced with the loss of 40 per cent of its business,"Lifeline has filed a legal action,claiming the move raises competition issues".

Given the desperate shortage of money for front line services,the HSE should be doing its utmost to achieve the cost savings mentioned above. If it doesn't,it should change its name to Siptu & Impact Workers Co-op!

Do you actually understand what a "closed shop" is?

It is
"A place of work where membership of a union is a condition for being hired and for continued employment."

It only applies to employment and has nothing to do with any other business decisions including outsourcing. Is Mr Hall is suggesting that the HSE replace the in-house ambulance service with his ambulances? Where is the logic in that suggestion which would result in highly trained paramedics becoming redundant to be replaced with van drives without the skills to deal with emergencies. There is no such thing as a "routine" transfer, the condition of a patient may be stable when put in the ambulance but that could can during the journey.

Closed shops are illegal in Ireland for many years, I cannot remember the name of the specific case which outlawed the closed shop by establishing that while employees had the right to associate (join a union), equally those so wished had the right not to associate (not to join a union).

[Conor]

Closed shops are illegal in Ireland for many years, I cannot remember the name of the specific case which outlawed the closed shop by establishing that while employees had the right to associate (join a union), equally those so wished had the right not to associate (not to join a union).

Meskell v CIE.

[Fisherman1]

The day I fall off a cliff in Clare mackerel fishing, and someone rings the coast guard, and an ambulance, is the day I expect a shout from the shore "What's your Credit Card number? Only we can't save you till you can PAY for the SERVICE. By the way, it's an hour and a half trip to the hospital, so you better answer fast. Every minute counts in a situation like this you know. But the road is much better".

Pay for the fire brigade, for the ambulance, for bins that are not collected, for owning a house that the bank owns, for parking at work, for road tolls, for water.

Where the F*** are we going.

What type of sheep are we to be herded in the direction set by our political leaders.

Take a cool calm measured look at the quality and vision of the quality and tripe of the current political elite.

FG and Lab have spoken with forked tongue and anyone who would trust them to buy an ice cream is a fool.

FF are the despicible shower of sc*m who never deserve a vote from a decent Irish citizen ever again.

I reckon SF are looking good as the rest have proven their qualities and limits.

This is the only logical conclusion and I am a person who acts on those logical conclusions.

Rock on Gerry.

The ESTABLISHMENT better get used to DEMOCRACY.

[spidermom]

I stopped reading at the mention of PWC....sorry Pat................

[patslatt]

Do you actually understand what a "closed shop" is?

It is
"A place of work where membership of a union is a condition for being hired and for continued employment."

It only applies to employment and has nothing to do with any other business decisions including outsourcing. Is Mr Hall is suggesting that the HSE replace the in-house ambulance service with his ambulances? Where is the logic in that suggestion which would result in highly trained paramedics becoming redundant to be replaced with van drives without the skills to deal with emergencies. There is no such thing as a "routine" transfer, the condition of a patient may be stable when put in the ambulance but that could can during the journey.

Closed shops are illegal in Ireland for many years, I cannot remember the name of the specific case which outlawed the closed shop by establishing that while employees had the right to associate (join a union), equally those so wished had the right not to associate (not to join a union).

If the private companies' ambulance staff are merely van drivers,how did they pass muster and get contracts from the HSE in the first place? Government contracting is very bureaucratic and designed to be risk free to the managers responsible,so you can be sure that the private ambulance staff must have met reasonable tests of skill.

The courts will have to make interesting decisions on whether it has the right to interfere with a management prerogative to fire contractors and to do so even in the case of bad business decisions. In the case of a private sector company,the court could assume that a company would not willingly fire a contractor and do the work at a higher long-term cost in-house given the strong private sector drive to make profits.But bureaucratic cost controls,often weak,replace the profit motive in state owned enterprises,so can the court decide that the HSE was acting against the interest of taxpayers and order it to reverse the decision? It would need proof that the private ambulance drivers were still qualified for the work they were doing and that the HSE were obviously wasting money bringing the work in-house,probably under pressure from SIPTU. Even if the court had such proof,it still would be very unlikely to interfere with the management prerogatives of a public sector body.That's because such interference would create a court precedent to interfere in politically motivated,bad financial decisions made every day in democracy.

The best the court case can achieve is to highlight another scandalously wasteful management decision of the HSE dinosaur and force politicians to step in out of public embarrassment.

[RobertW]

I stopped reading at the mention of PWC....sorry Pat................

I stopped reading when I saw the opening poster was Pat.

[Mr. Bumble]

If the private companies' ambulance staff are merely van drivers,how did they pass muster and get contracts from the HSE in the first place? Government contracting is very bureaucratic and designed to be risk free to the managers responsible,so you can be sure that the private ambulance staff must have met reasonable tests of skill.

The courts will have to make interesting decisions on whether it has the right to interfere with a management prerogative to fire contractors and to do so even in the case of bad business decisions. In the case of a private sector company,the court could assume that a company would not willingly fire a contractor and do the work at a higher long-term cost in-house given the strong private sector drive to make profits.But bureaucratic cost controls,often weak,replace the profit motive in state owned enterprises,so can the court decide that the HSE was acting against the interest of taxpayers and order it to reverse the decision? It would need proof that the private ambulance drivers were still qualified for the work they were doing and that the HSE were obviously wasting money bringing the work in-house,probably under pressure from SIPTU. Even if the court had such proof,it still would be very unlikely to interfere with the management prerogatives of a public sector body.That's because such interference would create a court precedent to interfere in politically motivated,bad financial decisions made every day in democracy.

The best the court case can achieve is to highlight another scandalously wasteful management decision of the HSE dinosaur and force politicians to step in.

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