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  1. #91
    StrangeOne StrangeOne is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister_Jinks View Post
    Posted too soon. Maybe I believe that abortion is wrong because I was raised a catholic. I'm not religious at all now though.

    On the existence of evil, or good, ask yourself this simple question -

    If the human race disappeared from the universe tomorrow, would there be good or evil then?
    What kind of a stupid question is that? They/we dissipate inside conglomerates that has presently/previously taken as a goal, to completely and utterly ************************ in our own nest, as thoroughly and completely as possible as never before.
    Free after decades in research labs: chimps step into the light
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  2. #92
    Tim Johnston Tim Johnston is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cato View Post
    Well, that is a good find, although in the context of the totality of Mill's writings it is clear that he believed that no single answer exists as to what is the 'good life'. It would be unfair, uncharitable and indeed inaccurate to claim that he was a Utopian thinker. Why else would he have advanced the arguments for liberty that he did?
    The mention of Rousseau is more to support William Godwin's view - don't worry I wouldn't cite Rousseau himself as a classical liberal!

    But the question I really want to ask is, can there be a world where everyone is at peace and prosperity is universal? Many people would say no, but does the no come from an acknowledgment that human nature is fundamentally flawed? Or does it come from a worldview that believes the obstacles to it are too difficult to overcome, but if they weren't, it would in theory be possible?

    Here's another question - does the goodness of an action come from its intent or from its outcome? Or from both?
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  3. #93
    Cato Cato is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tim Johnston View Post
    The mention of Rousseau is more to support William Godwin's view - don't worry I wouldn't cite Rousseau himself as a classical liberal!

    But the question I really want to ask is, can there be a world where everyone is at peace and prosperity is universal? Many people would say no, but does the no come from an acknowledgment that human nature is fundamentally flawed? Or does it come from a worldview that believes the obstacles to it are too difficult to overcome, but if they weren't, it would in theory be possible?

    Here's another question - does the goodness of an action come from its intent or from its outcome? Or from both?
    My answer would be 'no', but not because human nature is 'flawed' (as judged against what standard?) but simply because human nature is what it is.

    Two your second question, short answer, I would say 'intent', although foreseeable consequences have to be taken in the balance too.
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  4. #94
    Mercurial Mercurial is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tim Johnston View Post
    Here's another question - does the goodness of an action come from its intent or from its outcome? Or from both?
    I'll fetch the trolleys.
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  5. #95
    Cato Cato is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mercurial View Post
    I'll fetch the trolleys.
    Please can there be a fat man. Regardless of scenario, I always opt to push him!
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  6. #96
    Mister_Jinks Mister_Jinks is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by StrangeOne View Post
    What kind of a stupid question is that? They/we dissipate inside conglomerates that has presently/previously taken as a goal, to completely and utterly ************************ in our own nest, as thoroughly and completely as possible as never before.
    Free after decades in research labs: chimps step into the light
    Well ok, if you feel that the question is stupid, is that perhaps because you feel that there is an obvious answer to the question? So what is your answer? From what you have posted, I can't tell for certain whether you feel that the answer is "yes, obviously" or "no, obviously".

    Anyway, assuming that humans did disappear tomorrow morning, or even better, let's assume that homo sapiens never evolved in the first place, then the world would be now populated by more primitive life forms than ourselves. (I am using intelligence as a yardstick by which to judge primitiveness here by the way.) So, in that scenario, would you feel that good and evil can exist? Or does it only apply to homo sapiens? However, what I think that you are getting at, and correct my if I'm wrong, is that the homo sapien is ultimately an evil species and if we judge it by the destruction that it has caused to its own natural environment and by the profound suffering it has caused to his own species and to others then this may indeed be so. Please let me know. I've got to go to bed now. Good night.
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  7. #97
    sparkel sparkel is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by Prester Jim View Post
    But psychopaths have no morality beyond what gets them what they want by the most direct route and often that causes the most pain to others.
    They seem to be very well suited to succeed in the modern world and indeed in the past too.
    Evolution is blind, psychopaths are not being weeded out by evolution as they are too often leaving their genes behind in a greater proportion then non psychopaths (no regrets/conscience, poor impulse control and risk taking behaviour is a sexy cocktail for many naive people).
    So maybe it is doing their work for them to dismiss them as from the past and fading.
    Also psychopaths are absolutely not insane or unhealthy.
    They are considered sane just different, they do not deserve sympathy and should be found and quarantined from the human beings who they see as nothing more than prey or cattle.
    They're very much in the present, one in twenty-five persons is a psychopath in America, and in Ireland, I'd say one in four. They thrive and go undetected because they choose their victims well, usually the simpltetons, or misfits, and since they're usually successful and intelligent ,they seem like demo-gods to this people. And yes, the will continue to have a presense on earth because they mate with simpletons, and are off the radar; we all have them as neighbors, and probably think highly of them because we don't really know them.

    They shouldn't be allo.wed to have children
    Last edited by sparkel; 9th September 2011 at 04:07 AM.
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  8. #98
    StrangeOne StrangeOne is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister_Jinks View Post
    Well ok, if you feel that the question is stupid, is that perhaps because you feel that there is an obvious answer to the question? So what is your answer? From what you have posted, I can't tell for certain whether you feel that the answer is "yes, obviously" or "no, obviously".

    Anyway, assuming that humans did disappear tomorrow morning, or even better, let's assume that homo sapiens never evolved in the first place, then the world would be now populated by more primitive life forms than ourselves. (I am using intelligence as a yardstick by which to judge primitiveness here by the way.) So, in that scenario, would you feel that good and evil can exist? Or does it only apply to homo sapiens? However, what I think that you are getting at, and correct my if I'm wrong, is that the homo sapien is ultimately an evil species and if we judge it by the destruction that it has caused to its own natural environment and by the profound suffering it has caused to his own species and to others then this may indeed be so. Please let me know. I've got to go to bed now. Good night.
    'If the human race disappeared from the universe tomorrow, would there be good or evil then?'

    ????
    Sheesh! 'Anyway, assuming that humans did disappear tomorrow morning, or even better, let's assume that homo sapiens never evolved in the first place, then the world would be now populated by more primitive life forms than ourselves'

    Wha!, like Cetaceans? or Pan troglodytes? maybe our more amorous kissing cousins Pan paniscus?

    Free Will is NOT An Illusion | Brain Blogger


    http://www.wired.com/images_blogs/wi...e_will_ERP.jpg
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  9. #99
    sparkel sparkel is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by StrangeOne View Post
    'If the human race disappeared from the universe tomorrow, would there be good or evil then?'

    ????
    Sheesh! 'Anyway, assuming that humans did disappear tomorrow morning, or even better, let's assume that homo sapiens never evolved in the first place, then the world would be now populated by more primitive life forms than ourselves'

    Wha!, like Cetaceans? or Pan troglodytes? maybe our more amorous kissing cousins Pan paniscus?

    Free Will is NOT An Illusion | Brain Blogger


    http://www.wired.com/images_blogs/wi...e_will_ERP.jpg
    Who says we aren't primitive? Have you seen the stockmarket commentators, ranting and raving about materialism? How primitive is that?
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  10. #100
    Mister_Jinks Mister_Jinks is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkel View Post
    Who says we aren't primitive? Have you seen the stockmarket commentators, ranting and raving about materialism? How primitive is that?
    Indeed. We tend to feel that we are somehow superior to the "animals". This is why Darwinianism was vehemently rejected at first. It is still rejected today of course - the notion of intelligent design for example.

    Consider the 6th commandment in the old testament. Should it be interpeted as applying to our fellow man only? Buddhists would feel differently.
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