Universities or free academic factories?

[patslatt]

Yesterday, campaigning politicians spoke of reducing fees for part-time students, a superficially laudable goal. This suggests that in the foreseeable future, the government will not tackle the issue of the restoration of university fees. Universities will continue to be completely dependant on government funding.

This dependency will be their downfall,as shown by the experience of university systems in Britain and the Continent, where poor government funding has reduced many universities to academic factories with hugely overcrowded lectures,poorly paid lecturers and antiquated facilities. By contrast,American universities with their huge private endowments offer a
good educational experience and are way ahead of Europe in the sciences.

Why won't the government fund universities properly in the long run? Governments have difficulty enough in paying for essential services, such as health care, pensions, policing,basic infrastructure etc. When hard budget choices have to be made,third level education is usually not high on the list of priorities.

In the case of third level science and engineering, huge investments are required in facilities to keep pace with scientific progress. It is difficult to persuade an education ministry which is distant from the scientific coal face of the need for such investment.

Some years ago,I compared the expenditure per student of Trininity College, Dublin and Yale, Connecticut, which were similar in the size of their student bodies. Amazingly,Yale's spending figure was nearly eight times higher. Imagine the response if Trinity asked the Minister of Education for,say, a trebling of funding in order to close the gap with Yale.

Yet, massively increased funding of third level sciences is necessary if Ireland is to secure its future in the knowledge-based economy, the stated
economic strategy of the government.

But the government is only paying lip service to the strategy, at least in the case of medical science. There is a shortage of funding,judging by the fact that one of Dublin's universities has given most of the medical school places to non-EU students,obviously because they pay the highest fees.

The restoration of fees would restore the financial independence of universities and would help them to stay at the forefront of investment in the sciences.

The restoration of fees need not deter students from low and moderate income families if Ireland adopts a system of university fees similar to Australia's. There, students from low income families pay no fees while attending university, but after university when their earnings reach a certain level, they pay back the fees through the income tax system. This system would have costs for high income families,but that would be preferable to attending second rate academic factories.

Another potential cost is a brain drain, as our top students seek quality third level education abroad in America, or possibly England should the recently restored top-up fees restore the tattered finances of English universities. Most of those students will not return to work here.

[Ronanr]

Some years ago,I compared the expenditure per student of Trininity College, Dublin and Yale, Connecticut, which were similar in the size of their student bodies. Amazingly,Yale's spending figure was nearly eight times higher. Imagine the response if Trinity asked the Minister of Education for,say, a trebling of funding in order to close the gap with Yale.

Is the value added (in, say, post-university earnings capacity)of an American university degree three times that of an Irish university degree?

If not, perhpas it is just a case of the Irish universities delver better value for money?

[trekkypj]

Besides which, the cost of attending university in the United States is a LOT higher than in Ireland.

[Universal_001]

Apparently they are so strapped for cash that they have to hike the registration fee from 190-800...apparently a plastic ID card costs 800 euro now....

Yet upgrading the pay of the university heads to half a million a year...no probs.

Low funding, not lack of private involvement, is the problem.

[patslatt]

Besides which, the cost of attending university in the United States is a LOT higher than in Ireland.

A newspaper report in the British press (The Times I think) reported that the cost of attending many American universities was less than in England. The introduction of top-up fees and the strengthening of sterling are the pincipal reasons for this.

The full fee at Ivy League universities is paid by high income families but many moderate and low income families qualify for generous grants that are funded by the universities' private endowments,which are massive in the case of Harvard, Yale, Princeton, MIT and many others.

The cost of living in many university towns in America, say New Haven, Connecticut for Yale or Chicago for University of Chicago (located in the black American ghetto) is far less than in the UK.

[CookieMonster]

And what of the growth of independent collages in Ireland?

[patslatt]

Apparently they are so strapped for cash that they have to hike the registration fee from 190-800...apparently a plastic ID card costs 800 euro now....

Yet upgrading the pay of the university heads to half a million a year...no probs.

Low funding, not lack of private involvement, is the problem.

Provision of generous funding for third level education of the upper classes is not regarded as a political priority, as experience has shown in Britain and the Continent.

The Scandinavians and the Dutch probably fund universities and social services better than other European countries, thanks to their massively onerous income taxes. Is it likely that Ireland's low tax economic model will provide adequate funding in the long run?

As long as our economic boom continues to generate high tax revenues, present modest funding levels of third level institutions will continue but when economic growth slows,the government will not maintain third level funding at its present level of GNP.

[Universal_001]

Our third level funding is not high.

and Universal services like free third level, when not accompanied by a progressive tax system (which we lack) are a de facto subsidy to the middle class.

[irishpeoplearewhingers]

Our third level funding is not high.

and Universal services like free third level, when not accompanied by a progressive tax system (which we lack) are a de facto subsidy to the middle class.

Totally.