Support independent living for disabled adults.

[KingKane]

I said that you were being superficial, not that the issues were. Those are indeed important issues and many people have raised them here over the last few years. If you care to look back over discussions on those issues on this site you will see I've contributed to them.

I believe that supporting independent living for disabled adults is is important and I have asked for people raise it on the doors, it is up to people themselves to make that judgement about how they choose to spend their time on the doorstep. If you actually took the time to read my posts you would find I am not paying lip service to this issue. You're the own paying lip service by simply saying "transportation" as if the one word meant the same thing to everyone. If you want a debate about transportation go to the the transport forum and start a thread, outline what you think and see who turns up.

The problem with public debate is that too many people run to the "issue" that comes up in a focus group, outline a position consistent with what was popular with the focus group and then looks for some means to implement it. Instead of acquainting themselves with an issue, becoming knowledgeable about it, identifying some problems, and then some possible solutions and then trying to convince people to support the solutions because they are the right thing to do. And which is it that you've just done?

[Schuhart]

I believe that supporting independent living for disabled adults is is important and I have asked for people raise it on the doors, it is up to people themselves to make that judgement about how they choose to spend their time on the doorstep.

This is simply assertion 'I think its important because its my sister and I want everyone else to join in'. I'm suggesting that's insufficient, given the considerable issues raised elsewhere.

If you want a debate about transportation go to the the transport forum and start a thread, outline what you think and see who turns up.

The relevance here is that no issue existing in isolation. My point is there are far more pressing issues on the transport forum. As you understand, it would be pointless to address the detail of those issues here.

[Instead of acquainting themselves with an issue, becoming knowledgeable about it, identifying some problems, and then some possible solutions and then trying to convince people to support the solutions because they are the right thing to do. And which is it that you've just done?

What I've just done is said to people 'nothing to see here, back to the real issues'. I do indeed participate in discussions about matters including health service reform, transportation and regional development here and on boards.ie

[KingKane]

So now, your logic is that if someone does know something about an issue perhaps because they have a family member affected by it that they shouldn't participate or get involved in a campaign about that issue? What would make some thing sufficient in your view?

This is the same infantile thinking that leads people trot out lines to suggest the government shouldn't give money to the arts or sports while there are sick people on hospital trolleys.

And you haven't just said 'nothing to see here, back to the real issues', you've said that you believe that this is a "tear-jerking irrelevance" and "superficial" and attempted to suggest that simply by highlighting what is being done by the government that I'm somehow letting them off the hook on loads of other areas or that I'm undermining any discussion of other problems. I suspect the real problem is you don't have any ideas on those other issues and just decided to badmouth a campaign that isn't going to do anything for you personally. And that basic selfishness is why political debate is lacking in Ireland.

[Schuhart]

So now, your logic is that if someone does know something about an issue perhaps because they have a family member affected by it that they shouldn't participate or get involved in a campaign about that issue?

My point is if someone tells us quite openly that they've leaped into adopting a position because of an emotional reaction and expects us to do likewise, its time to ask for some substantiation. You haven't been able to provide any, and have been trying to send up a smokescreen rather than simply admit that.

I suspect the real problem is you don't have any ideas on those other issues and just decided to badmouth a campaign that isn't going to do anything for you personally. And that basic selfishness is why political debate is lacking in Ireland.

This is total fantasy, and the claim of 'selfishness' when your sole motivation seems to be getting money for your sister is quite ludicrous.

I think you're illustrating a particular feature of Irish public debate, when someone nails their colours to the mast without much thought and then expends a vast amount of energy trying to defend an unwise position rather than simply admitting they made a mistake.

[KingKane]

I can hardly be said to be leaping into supporting this position, I would be supportive of independent living all my life.

And I'm not asking people to support it because of an emotional response, independent living is something that is beneficial to those with disabilities and also to the broader community. And what is this substantiation you're looking for? Is it an economic return you're looking for or what? Ok, here's one providing support for independent living for those with disabilities in settings in the community is more cost effective than large scale institutional solutions we've tried before. It also frees up the parents to participate fully in the work force (or are you opposed to people working now?)

I'm not looking to "get" money for my sister, I'm looking to protect her entitlement as a member of Irish society to the basic level of support that she like everyone should have. I would also like to mention that it is the organisations such as KPFMH and that have raised funds and worked to buy the premises that the people we're talking about are living in. Not the HSE, not the department of health, the parents and the friends.

I've nailed my colours to the mast, but you're being evasive about why you think that we now need to charge people. Admit it, you just think that everyone should fend for themselves and that your copy of Atlas Shrugged needs replacing.

And how is it that of the trio of headlines that you raised, you've not opened a thread on anyone of them? You've opened one thread on the ICTU and Shannon. And that really drew a crowd didn't it. That's how much those issues matter to you.

[Schuhart]

I would be supportive of independent living all my life.

I think you are chucking around the label ‘independent living’ as if this is a synonym for ‘my sister should get 180 smackers and make no contribution to the cost of the place where she lives’. It’s not a synonym.

providing support for independent living for those with disabilities in settings in the community is more cost effective than large scale institutional solutions we've tried before. It also frees up the parents to participate fully in the work force

I’d favour the idea of people with intellectual disabilities living in community settings rather that large scale institutions. However, I think your arguments here are poor as I doubt that you can substantiate that the cost is cheaper for more dependant people. Also, the freeing of parents to participate in the workforce simply depends on the provision of services – regardless of whether it’s in a community setting or a large centre.

I would also like to mention that it is the organisations such as KPFMH and that have raised funds and worked to buy the premises that the people we're talking about are living in. Not the HSE, not the department of health, the parents and the friends.

Generally, the significance of voluntary funding tends to be exaggerated. Sometimes people do successfully raise funds for capital projects and that’s a good thing, but ongoing costs are pretty much always heavily dependant on the State as fund raising activities just won’t sustain them. Would I be correct in saying that the Kerry Parents and Friends Association receives significant state funding, so the title of the Association shouldn’t mislead us into thinking that our taxes are not what keeps their services going?

I've nailed my colours to the mast, but you're being evasive about why you think that we now need to charge people. Admit it, you just think that everyone should fend for themselves and that your copy of Atlas Shrugged needs replacing.

I’d like something that explains why, in a situation where many people in need of residential care cannot get it, your priority is to give money to people already in residential care.

Anticipating your reaction to be ‘I’m not stopping anyone from campaigning for more residential care’, I put it to you that your position is effectively ‘I don’t give two hoots about people on waiting lists for services as my sister has her place’. If that is your position, you might reflect on it in the context of deeming my position to be selfish.

And how is it that of the trio of headlines that you raised, you've not opened a thread on anyone of them? You've opened one thread on the ICTU and Shannon. And that really drew a crowd didn't it. That's how much those issues matter to you.

Can I suggest this point is barely coherent. What I take out of it is that you are unable to make any substantial case in support of your position and want to create some kind of ad hominem argument. This isn’t really a fertile furrow. It’s not as if there’s some rule that you can only contradict people with a lower post count.

[nollaig1]

I think that people with intellectual disabilities are treated like children in Ireland. The outgoing government as well as Enda Kenny and Fine Gael are more interested in trying to make themselves more younger looking and creating the perfect body image. Not everybody is perfect, I am not perfect, I am not 6ft tall, dark and handsome with carisma. It is my belief that every citizen of Ireland should be looked after as an individual, everybody is different and everbody has different needs. Anybody's son or daughter can be born with a disability. Everybody has the right to live an independent life. To take that away from a person is unforgiveable. I am voting for the Green Party this time around just to show the other parties who have been in government before at sometime or another that they to are not perfect. My way of thinking is that the Green Party have never been in government before so lets give them a chance.