Why Fine Gael & Labours plans on Health dont add up

[Maximus]

Over the last few weeks we've seen Fine Gael and Labour produce their plans on Health, they talk about cleaner hospitals, more beds and better services. But it turns out on closer inspection the figures and polices they have outlined just don't add up. There are at least 7 major question marks over their plans:

1. The costings are greatly underestimated – by 50% at least - even on a quick estimate?

Medical cards for 40% of population €360m
GP cards for 60% of children under 5 €50m*
Running cost of 2,300 new hospital beds €650m
Free insurance for all under 16: €360m
1,500 non-hospital beds €100m

Total current so far: €1.52 billion

Capital cost of new hospital beds: €2.3 billion
Capital cost of non-hospital beds €200m

* for universal coverage, the IMO will demand a higher payment

Labour and Fine Gael cannot fool people with a total costing of just €1.1bn


2. Free insurance for all under 16 year olds?

Will people with insurance be able to cancel their policies for their children? If not, will insurance for children now be compulsory?

If the State is paying for insurance for some people, what is the means test? People have a right to know if they will have pay or not and taxpayers have a right to know how much they will have to fund.

What actual benefits package will be in the State insurance contract – VHI Plan B? Plan C? Plan E?

Will under 16 year olds be insured for all hospitals, including Blackrock Clinic, Mater Private, Galway Clinic? If not, how can FG/Labour claim this brings equality for all?

How can the medical card payment system to doctors (capitation) for children under 5 sit alongside the insurance –based system of fee payment to doctors for children over 5?

What fees will the State pay to doctors for children over 5 years?

Will the State pay for whatever fee the doctor charges?

Will the State pay for unlimited doctor visits for children over 5 years? Or will there be a limit on the number of visits paid per year under the insurance product?


3. Free medical cards for 40 per cent of the population?

Why 40 per cent? Why not 45%? Why not 35%?

40 per cent was agreed with the IMO as a trigger for a contract review in worsening economic circumstances in the late 1980s, when more people were needing medical cards, with incomes so low. This is a throwback to a time of economic failure, unemployment and stagnating incomes. It is not a policy designed for a successful economy with rising incomes.


4. Universal health insurance = compulsory insurance?

When will insurance become compulsory? In the lifetime of the next Government?

People are being asked to buy into an inevitable, unknown tax increase at some point in the future. We should know when and how much before a mandate is given to this.

Who will have to pay and who will the State pay for?

What will the means test be?

Will insurance companies control which hospitals provide services, and which will stay open or closed?

Universal insurance = double taxation

Raising insurance funding from the taxpayers means taxpayers are doubly charged for both public hospital beds and public hospital consultants salaries, that taxpayers already fund. Why pay twice?

The only people in our health services to benefit from fees paid by insurance companies are consultants. No other staff would benefit.

Do Fine Gael and Labour propose a one-for-one, euro-for-euro reduction in hospital consultants’ salaries for each new State-financed insurance fee per item paid to them?


5. Why now insist on keeping private beds in public hospitals

Abandoning co-location projects means insisting that 1,000 beds in our public hospitals must remain ring-fenced for private patients, and in total, taxpayers must continue to fund 2,500 private beds in public hospitals.

How can it be right to support private hospitals at a distance from public hospitals but not beside them?

Why is it better to support private hospitals away from public hospitals – as Fine Gael do – rather than beside them?

Would FG-Labour abrogate any contracts written for co-location facilities?


6. Why accept Labour hypocrisy on the use of private hospitals?

Why should we accept Labour hypocrisy in campaigning for the use of the for-profit Whitfield Clinic in Waterford while opposing private hospital care in general at national level and especially opposing private hospitals located beside public hospitals?


7. Why have Labour now made their own health cuts?

This is the first time a political party has made health cuts in Opposition. Five years ago, they promised free GP care for all; now its just for under-5s. Five years ago, they promised universal insurance for all; now its just for under 16year olds.

Their plans now for universal insurance are as unworkable as they were then.

The Irish Health Service is the most complex and demanding area of public administration in this country. The people deserve a proper policy debate not just glib promises about throwing teenagers in ‘drunk tanks’ and figures that don’t add up.

[The Trinity Politick]

FF'ers are ones to talk about cost over-runs. Jesus Maximus, are you not employed?

[Dunny]

FF'ers are ones to talk about cost over-runs. Jesus Maximus, are you not employed?

Maximus is a bum!!!

On a serious note, these are valid questions!!

[meriwether]

Is the same scenario as Noel Dempseys hilarious 'pre-buttal' last week before the launch of the joint manifesto?
He said FG would cost every tax payer 10k, and spending would be between 14-35billion.
If he had stood up and said in a sing-song voice that FG woudl cost every tax payer a 'gazillion' euros, he couldn't have looked stupider.

Todays update: FG and Labour will cost everyone a 'squillion' euros.

[Maximus]

Is the same scenario as Noel Dempseys hilarious 'pre-buttal' last week before the launch of the joint manifesto?
He said FG would cost every tax payer 10k, and spending would be between 14-35billion.
If he had stood up and said in a sing-song voice that FG woudl cost every tax payer a 'gazillion' euros, he couldn't have looked stupider.

Todays update: FG and Labour will cost everyone a 'squillion' euros.

I think these are 7 reasonable questions that Fine Gael and Labour need to answer if we are going to take their plans on Health seriously. They’ve had two years to formulate policy surely all these questions have already been considered in extensive detail…. or are we dealing with another botched 3-year stamp duty type proposal again?

Health Policy is serious, it deserves serious debate.

[The Trinity Politick]

This is the reason the your gracious leader blames FG on the e-voting cock up. Health is serious? How the hell would you know? 10 years in government Max. 10 years. You have absolutely no solutions it would appear.

Any change is better than dead-pan faces and sympathy for families from a Minster in your government. Shame on all of you

[meriwether]

Is the same scenario as Noel Dempseys hilarious 'pre-buttal' last week before the launch of the joint manifesto?
He said FG would cost every tax payer 10k, and spending would be between 14-35billion.
If he had stood up and said in a sing-song voice that FG woudl cost every tax payer a 'gazillion' euros, he couldn't have looked stupider.

Todays update: FG and Labour will cost everyone a 'squillion' euros.

I think these are 7 reasonable questions that Fine Gael and Labour need to answer if we are going to take their plans on Health seriously. They’ve had two years to formulate policy surely all these questions have already been considered in extensive detail…. or are we dealing with another botched 3-year stamp duty type proposal again?

Health Policy is serious, it deserves serious debate.

Sadly, we dont get serious debate if you're involved.
You have no interest in serious debate about Healthcare in Ireland. You're just here to dump some half-baked stuff that was concocted in FF HQ, but isnt credible enough to be taken on by the serious media.

Were a serious debate on health to emerge, a cracking starting point would be the record of the current Govt.

[Dee Four]

Okay then, for the benefit of those who are not already party hacks, I'll see if I can summarise the situation

FF/PDs have been in government for ten years and the health service is in a shambles even though we're all rich.

FG/Labour have rightly seen health as a good area to attack the government, but even though they've had ten years to come up with a comprehensive plan, they seemed to have come up short on detail.

Now, there are plenty of threads where we can go shout about the government's record. Why not have one thread where we can discuss the merits and demerits of the alternative?

[The Trinity Politick]

Okay then, for the benefit of those who are not already party hacks, I'll see if I can summarise the situation

FF/PDs have been in government for ten years and the health service is in a shambles even though we're all rich.

FG/Labour have rightly seen health as a good area to attack the government, but even though they've had ten years to come up with a comprehensive plan, they seemed to have come up short on detail.

Now, there are plenty of threads where we can go shout about the government's record. Why not have one thread where we can discuss the merits and demerits of the alternative?

So you believe that this government has all the answers for the Health situation? Our manifesto will be published soon, so i won;t comment until that is before the public.

[Maximus]

This is the reason the your gracious leader blames FG on the e-voting cock up. Health is serious? How the hell would you know? 10 years in government Max. 10 years. You have absolutely no solutions it would appear.

Any change is better than dead-pan faces and sympathy for families from a Minster in your government. Shame on all of you

This tread isn’t about E-Voting it’s about Health and in particular seven questions Fine Gael and Labour need to answer if we’re to take their pronouncements on the topic seriously.