Quotas on Catholic primary schools for non-Catholic children

[beardyboy]

It is entirely fair the religious schools prioritise admission for children of their religion

[St Disibod]

So basically only Catholic schools in areas where there is a shortage of school places (in other words only a couple of dozen schools in the country, out of a couple of thousand primary schools) have this ability.

As far as I know: yes to the bit outside the brackets and no to the bit inside.

If there is no other pupil to fill an available place I think the school is pretty much obliged to take them. But there seems to be far more than a few dozen schools under pressure. I know several people who have rushed to the baptismal font without any spiritual interest but rather to get their child into the appropriate school. It might just be a Leinster problem, but it's not peripheral.

Are the schools down the country not bursting at the seams in places? Or do they just make do with rat infestation? You got to love how we cherish the children of the nation, don't you?

[St Disibod]

It is entirely fair the religious schools prioritise admission for children of their religion

Again returning to my previous post:

Well technically you can educate your child at home- in terms of the way the national school policy was formulated this might be considered option 1. Option 2 is to get together with members of your community and organise a co-operative to run a school and apply for state funding- and Churches have picked up the tab on 98% of these option 2 schools.

Understood in this light, I would say yes.

[beardyboy]

It is entirely fair the religious schools prioritise admission for children of their religion

Again returning to my previous post:

Well technically you can educate your child at home- in terms of the way the national school policy was formulated this might be considered option 1. Option 2 is to get together with members of your community and organise a co-operative to run a school and apply for state funding- and Churches have picked up the tab on 98% of these option 2 schools.

Understood in this light, I would say yes.

I cannot differ with you.

I only know of one home schooling couple.

Why do those who complain so much about catholic schooling do something about getting there own schools ?

If they are so confident in their numbers surely this can be arranged - it would ease the pressure on the Church

[qtman]

Why do those who complain so much about catholic schooling do something about getting there own schools ?

Because not everyone has access to a land bank that they've built up over thousands of years by convincing poor people that it they don't cough up they'll go to hell.

And in relation to your previous comment about the State not imposing its morality on the Church, what exactly are you suggesting?

That Canon Law is superior to Positive Law, perhaps?

[Pidge]

As regards your point about politicians lecturing Church leaders, the separation of Church and State is a two-way street. The Church musn't impose its morality upon the State and vice versa.

No, the laws of the state still apply to the Church.

[MichaelR]

Recent press reports say that Catholic Church and Church of Ireland officials have written to managements of primary schools to require baptismal certificates for all new entrants. The purpose is to maintain the ethos of Catholic and Protestant schools.

Are any of these reports available online?

After the Villiers bus scandal (where the press twisted the truth to be very misleading - although whether it lied is debatable) I would prefer to triple-check any reports like that.

[secularireland]

Recent press reports say that Catholic Church and Church of Ireland officials have written to managements of primary schools to require baptismal certificates for all new entrants. The purpose is to maintain the ethos of Catholic and Protestant schools.

Are any of these reports available online?

After the Villiers bus scandal (where the press twisted the truth to be very misleading - although whether it lied is debatable) I would prefer to triple-check any reports like that.

Do the Catholic Church and the COI coordinate their messages to 'their' schools? Really? I'd like to see these 'press reports' as well.

On the topic, I think, of course, that schools and religion should not mix in a common sense world. Excluding or including children based on a 'belief' or faith they cannot possibly understand or have is wrong, and harmful to society in the long run. A parent may inculcate their system of beliefs to their child if they wish, but that does not mean that they have the 'right'. I certainly don't see how it makes sense to spend taxpayers' money to that end. Surely the church should fund that exclusively in an institution other than a school, such as a Sunday School.

A school should be a cathedral of education not a temple of inclucation. Surely that just makes good sense.

I'm not sure on this one but my wife, who is a teacher, tells me that it is illegal for a school to turn away a child based solely on their faith. From what she tells me, if a parent actually took a case the school would be on very shaky legal ground. Does anyone know the law in this regard?

[St Disibod]

I'm not sure on this one but my wife, who is a teacher, tells me that it is illegal for a school to turn away a child based solely on their faith. From what she tells me, if a parent actually took a case the school would be on very shaky legal ground. Does anyone know the law in this regard?

Again, it's not that they 'refuse entry,' they 'prefer.'

I don't think the schools are all that empowered in terms of refusing entry. Rather, their powers lie in exercising preference. If they have one place and two applicants, they may prefer one who is a member of their own religion. So, if a school has lots of empty places it can't really say no to anyone. But if a school has lots of applicants it can't say yes to everyone- so it prioritises.

It is illegal to refuse entry on the basis of religion or there lack of, but it is not illegal to prefer on the basis of religion- though I imagine a denominational school has to treat all non-members of their denomination equally: I don't think a Church of Ireland school can say Anglicans first, Presbyterians second, Methodists third, etc. I think priority can only be given to students within the school's own denomination- but I'm not sure about that.

Why do those who complain so much about catholic schooling do something about getting there own schools ?

If they are so confident in their numbers surely this can be arranged - it would ease the pressure on the Church

Some of them have done just that- hence Educate Together. But I do think the state should provide non-denominational education- in this day and age it seems a bit backward to expect parents to plan so far ahead as to organise building a school before enrolling their children in it. To attach a visual image to the policy, imagine pregnant women pushing wheelbarrows of cinder blocks. That's a bit what it's like- they're expected to organise rather than physically build the school; but still it's far from practical. My bone of contention is when people blame the churches for the status quo- it's not their fault. The status quo is a consequence of state policy so blame the politicians, not the priests and pastors.

Saying all that, the policy has already changed. The state has agreed to build new, non-denominational schools. What's more the churches publically backed this scheme. I do have a slight concern of the possible fracture that might result by establishing islands of state-administered schools in a sea of schools saturated with community involvement. But that requires a whole different thread of its own.

[secularireland]

I'm not sure on this one but my wife, who is a teacher, tells me that it is illegal for a school to turn away a child based solely on their faith. From what she tells me, if a parent actually took a case the school would be on very shaky legal ground. Does anyone know the law in this regard?

Again, it's not that they 'refuse entry,' they 'prefer.'

Semantics? If the net result that a child who for every other reason would get into the school (next on the waiting list, of suffcient mental capacity etc.) would be turned down in 'preference' of the next child of religious parents then the distinction doesn't matter, does it?

It is illegal to refuse entry on the basis of religion or there lack of, but it is not illegal to prefer on the basis of religion

Again there is no distinction if the net result is that a child is turned away from a school based on the religion of their parents.

though I imagine a denominational school has to treat all non-members of their denomination equally: I don't think a Church of Ireland school can say Anglicans first, Presbyterians second, Methodists third, etc. I think priority can only be given to students within the school's own denomination- but I'm not sure about that.

I would imagine that all schoold have to treat children as members of the human race who are entitled under the constitution to a state-funded education. It is an absolute nonsense to even suggest that schools can or do 'grade' religions. On the one hand you're saying that priority is given to children of a certain religion's parents (to the obvious exclusion of other faiths and non-faith) and then you're saying that schools can only prefer - there is no distinction?

Why do those who complain so much about catholic schooling do something about getting there own schools ?

If they are so confident in their numbers surely this can be arranged - it would ease the pressure on the Church

Some of them have done just that- hence Educate Together. But I do think the state should provide non-denominational education- in this day and age it seems a bit backward to expect parents to plan so far ahead as to organise building a school before enrolling their children in it. To attach a visual image to the policy, imagine pregnant women pushing wheelbarrows of cinder blocks. That's a bit what it's like- they're expected to organise rather than physically build the school; but still it's far from practical. My bone of contention is when people blame the churches for the status quo- it's not their fault. The status quo is a consequence of state policy so blame the politicians, not the priests and pastors.

I agree that the government's solution to schooling of non-catholics is abhorrent. I don't think it is for the church to do anything about the status quo. The state is directly contributing to the baptising of children into the Catholic by parents who have no intention of bringing them up in the faith. I don't understand why BEardyboy is not up in arms about the wanton dilution of the Catholic faith. More and more the 1st communion and the confirmation is becoming about the 'day out' and not about the faith. There seems to be a trade off for quanitity and not quality.

Saying all that, the policy has already changed. The state has agreed to build new, non-denominational schools. What's more the churches publically backed this scheme. I do have a slight concern of the possible fracture that might result by establishing islands of state-administered schools in a sea of schools saturated with community involvement. But that requires a whole different thread of its own.

I think that your fears are quite unfounded. It is inherent in schools, by the simple fact that children have parents who care about them, that there will be community involvement- the community of the parents. Also, I think that non-demoninational schools are a better model for community involvement: in many ways, with people of many faiths and none it could be argued that Educate Together schools have a far richer and deeper community spirit than your typical preferenial religious school.