I'm quite worried about these Fine gael plans for health

[hurling_lad]

Who are genuine left wingers and who do they vote for?

The 2 key aspects of FG policy are
1. Universal Health Insurance
2. Money follows patient

The same as Labour policy
Fixing the Health Service » Election 2007 Manifesto » The Labour Party

So if Labour and FG do go into bed together after the next election - their negotiation on the health service will take 5 minutes. (toss a coin to see who gets health minister)

Is it the winner or loser of the coin toss who gets the ministry?

[paulp]

I too am opposed to the neo-liberal fair care model proposed by FG.

Fixing the Health Service » Election 2007 Manifesto » The Labour Party


Really?
- and the difference between faircare and Labour manifesto is?

[Herodotus]

Fixing the Health Service » Election 2007 Manifesto » The Labour Party


Really?
- and the difference between faircare and Labour manifesto is?

That was when we had a pre-election alliance with FG. We stand alone now. We are neither FG or FF we are Labour.

Party policy changes, that was from 3 years ago.

[paulp]

That was when we had a pre-election alliance with FG. We stand alone now. We are neither FG or FF we are Labour.

Party policy changes, that was from 3 years ago.

That was Labour manifesto going into the last general election.

I think we have to assume that if Labour got into power at the last election - it would be implemented by now?

[Rocky]

That was when we had a pre-election alliance with FG. We stand alone now. We are neither FG or FF we are Labour.

Party policy changes, that was from 3 years ago.

And the labour policy is what exactly?

[dotski_w_]

I've heard figures of dutch workers paying up to €4000 to insure their family.

I've no brief for FG, but that's far from what I'd heard (I used to work in an area where EU social policies were compared). On wiki, it states

A key feature of the Dutch system is that premiums are set at a flat rate for all purchasers regardless of health status or age. Risk variances between funds due to the different risks presented by individual policy holders are compensated through risk equalization and a common risk pool, which makes it more attractive for insurers to attract risky clients. Funding for all short term health care is 50% from employers, and 45 percent from the insured person and 5% by the government. Children until age 18 are covered for free. Those on low incomes receive compensation to help them pay their insurance. Premiums paid by the insured are about 100 € per month (about US$146 in Sept. 2009) with variation of about 5% between the various competing insurers.

Given kids are free, for a family with 2 adults, that's €200 per month i.e. less than €50 per week, or €2,400 p.a. and they pay less if they are on lower incomes (I'm open to correction, but I beleive that if you're unemployed the State picks up the tab). That's less than I pay for my family on VHI, and I can guarantee you you'd get a better service for it there than we do here.

It's not to say that I'm against a 100% state-run service, but I don't think the evidence suggests that the Dutch model would be anything other than a step forward for us.

Frankly, properly resourced, it would work and be fairer than what we've got now. And I'd take that.

[goatstoe]

I think there should be an in depth and transparent debate on the health system in Ireland. It is too important an issue for the debate to be undermined by people arguing along party lines. Anytime I hear the health system debated in the media, the discussion hardly ever gets beyond first base.

I reckon the media are compromised in any discussion about what to do with the health system because they all rely heavily on advertising from health insurance companies. Every time the ads come on the radio or tv, it seems like every second ad is from a health insurance company, this has to have an influence on the media's angle on these debates. Fine Gael want to introduce the Dutch model, how does this compare with French, German or Scandanavian models?

[Sailor]

Am I correct in assuming that the FG plan is really just an insurance scheme and does not attempt to address the infrastructural deficit in the system. In other words we pay for it differently but we get the same service and waiting lists?

[FutureTaoiseach]

I fully expect Fine Gael to win 60+ seats in next election and become the senior partner in coalition with Labour. Now generally they will just contine on with the same right wing pro-rich policies of Fianna Fail and the Greens. However a major policy shift looks set to take place in Healthcare.

Fine Gael want to implement the "Dutch model" ie force private health insurance on every person while destroying public healthcare. Ordinary working people on modest incomes will now have money taken out of their pay cheques and handed over to private insurance companies. This could be extremely expensive, I've heard figures of dutch workers paying up to €4000 to insure their family. In the case of people being unable to afford private health insurance the state will pay money directly to private health insurance fiirms.

This will completely privatise the health sector in Ireland. Health insurance companies will make massive profits while ordinary people will pay through their hats. This is completely the wrong approach to follow. Ireland should be pursuing a one tier public health system paid for by the progressive taxation model. If run correctly a public health system is far more cost efficient than a private one. The problem is you can't trust a right wing government to run proper public services. Right wing governments always deliberately run down public services so that people will support privatisations. Look at Harney, she is deliberately destroying the HSE so that people will turn towards her mates in private healthcare and make them huge profits.

<Mod - merged with just4ever thread>

The ends justify the means. The unions are opposed because it will link payment to delivery. But the health-service is supposed to be there for our benefit - not theirs. It's also interesting that Labour supports universal health-insurance, which seems to undermine your argument that what is happening is privatisation. In fact, I would go further than FG and implement the Dutch system in full, with privatised hospitals to break the power of the selfish, greedy public-sector unions. The HSE should be downsized and focused on regulating rather than running the health-service. You can't have it both ways. Germany and France - countries whose health-services are constantly extolled by the Irish Left - have compulsory health-insurance too. They call for an end to the "two-tier system". Well I agree - and this is the only proven mechanism for ending it. If throwing money at the health-service were sufficient, then we would know by now because since 1997., health-spending has increased from €3 billion to €15 billion per annum.

That was when we had a pre-election alliance with FG. We stand alone now. We are neither FG or FF we are Labour.

Party policy changes, that was from 3 years ago.

I hope you are not denying that universal health-insurance is still Labour policy because it certainly was in 2008 according to the Labour website and that was under Gilmore's leadership.

[wombat]

FG's proposal as I interpret it places the burden of expense on the employee rather than the employer. I would suggest the reverse.

Are you currently employed? Ask your boss what effect paying for health insurance will have on his business.