Religion vs. 'No religion' in Ireland -the demographics

[Mouroux]

From Wiki:

Ireland - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Ireland's largest religious group is Christianity. The largest denomination is the Roman Catholicism representing over 73% for the island (and about 87%[106] of the Republic of Ireland). Most of the rest of the population adhere to one of the various Protestant denominations (about 53% of Northern Ireland).[107] The largest is the Anglican Church of Ireland. The Muslim community is growing in Ireland, mostly through increased immigration. The island has a small Jewish community. About 4% of the Republic's population describe themselves as of no religion.[106] About 14% of the Northern Ireland population described themselves as so.[107]"

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The differences in the percentages of those having 'no religion' is interesting -4% South versus 14% North.

According to research carried out by Gregory Paul (Gregory S. Paul - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) this should not happen -rather there should be a higher number of atheists/agnostics in Southern Ireland. Paul correlates 'no religion' with lower crime rates and higher education. However, I would have thought the crime rates were lower in the Republic and also that we have a very high standard of education by comparison to NI?

As a caveat, please note that Paul only accounts for crimes like murder, muggings, rape, larceny etc. --he does not take into account 'white collar crime' which is much more difficult to detect. However, 'white collar crime' might cause a bank or large corporation to collapse resulting in negative effects on an economy, joblessless and poverty. This in turn might lead to an increase in crimes such as muggings, rape, etc. or equally it might cause people to turn to religion or religious organisations for 'hope', material aid in the form of charity, etc. So his correlation between 'religious types' and criminal types and uneducated types is far from straight-forward. Obviously, there is also a correlation between higher education and white collar crime --so what are the implications of this consideration for his study?

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Any thoughts or questions? Does anyone support Paul's thesis?

[fun tzu]

Really all this could prove is that correlation does not imply causation.

[sarahj]

The republic figures come from census data. Could many mammys have been putting their kids down as catholic when they may not feel so themselves? Could the high number of Poles in that census skew the figures? Maybe a lot of observations were made by people on behalf of others and they simply assumed them as catholic if they had been baptised confirmed etc?

Many people in Ireland call themselves catholic though they don't even believe in it at all.

[willoughby]

From Wiki:

Ireland - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Ireland's largest religious group is Christianity. The largest denomination is the Roman Catholicism representing over 73% for the island (and about 87%[106] of the Republic of Ireland). Most of the rest of the population adhere to one of the various Protestant denominations (about 53% of Northern Ireland).[107] The largest is the Anglican Church of Ireland. The Muslim community is growing in Ireland, mostly through increased immigration. The island has a small Jewish community. About 4% of the Republic's population describe themselves as of no religion.[106] About 14% of the Northern Ireland population described themselves as so.[107]"

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The differences in the percentages of those having 'no religion' is interesting -4% South versus 14% North.

According to research carried out by Gregory Paul (Gregory S. Paul - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) this should not happen -rather there should be a higher number of atheists/agnostics in Southern Ireland. Paul correlates 'no religion' with lower crime rates and higher education. However, I would have thought the crime rates were lower in the Republic and also that we have a very high standard of education by comparison to NI?

As a caveat, please note that Paul only accounts for crimes like murder, muggings, rape, larceny etc. --he does not take into account 'white collar crime' which is much more difficult to detect. However, 'white collar crime' might cause a bank or large corporation to collapse resulting in negative effects on an economy, joblessless and poverty. This in turn might lead to an increase in crimes such as muggings, rape, etc. or equally it might cause people to turn to religion or religious organisations for 'hope', material aid in the form of charity, etc. So his correlation between 'religious types' and criminal types and uneducated types is far from straight-forward. Obviously, there is also a correlation between higher education and white collar crime --so what are the implications of this consideration for his study?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Any thoughts or questions? Does anyone support Paul's thesis?

Before this is stated, we already know that 96% arent practising in their various faith an that the figure is much lower. Many people obviously still define themselves as the religion of their births, whether out of pride or shame, even though they do not believe in it.

[sarahj]

The proportion who were Catholic went up by 6.3% in the state between 2002 and 2006. That HAS to have something to do with the immigration of Poles.

[Richard Roma]

It might just be an indication of the kind of people I fraternise with but I think the 4% figure for irreligious people has got to be seriously understated. You tend to find when people have the benefit of anonymity, especially on the internet, that everyone has become an atheist.

[bessiebell]

I'd have thought it probable that a high church-going population was much more likely to be associated with low crime rates. Let's say that half the population of Ireland goes to Church this weekend and half don't. That's close enough to reality. Of all the crimes committed in the country next week, what proportion of them are likely to have been committed by the half that went to Church? A very small proportion, I'd guess.

[sarahj]

I'd have thought it probable that a high church-going population was much more likely to be associated with low crime rates. Let's say that half the population of Ireland goes to Church this weekend and half don't. That's close enough to reality. Of all the crimes committed in the country next week, what proportion of them are likely to have been committed by the half that went to Church? A very small proportion, I'd guess.

The causation Paul seems to be implying is in the other direction. That advances in social stability (such as universal healthcare etc) seem to cause people to stop believing in sky fairies as they don't need supernatural entities to look after them anymore, society does it together.

"high religiosity is not universal to human populations, and it is actually inversely related to a wide range of socio-economic indicators representing the health of modern democracies." Paul holds that "once a nation's population becomes prosperous and secure, for example through economic security and universal health care, much of the population loses interest in seeking the aid and protection of supernatural entities. This effect appears to be so consistent that it may prevent nations from being highly religious while enjoying good internal socioeconomic conditions."

- Gregory S. Paul - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Interista]

I think to some extent religious labels in Ireland are used in much the same way as they are in Lebanon - almost as 'ethnic' identifiers. So people say they are "Catholic" even if they've not been inside a church for 15 years, simply because that's how they were raised. I agree, though, that you would expect the number of people claiming 'no religion' to be lower rather than (much) higher in the North, where religion as a kind of 'tribal' label is much more significant than it is in the South.

[fun tzu]

I'd have thought it probable that a high church-going population was much more likely to be associated with low crime rates. Let's say that half the population of Ireland goes to Church this weekend and half don't. That's close enough to reality. Of all the crimes committed in the country next week, what proportion of them are likely to have been committed by the half that went to Church? A very small proportion, I'd guess.

Ah the old religious people are good, atheists are evil fallacy.

Amazingly it transpires that people don't act morally because they're afraid of divine retribution.