Day of reckoning for Andrew Wakefield

[Toland]

I wish you luck with this lot imokyrok. Haven't got the energy meself.

[rhonda15]

What's your point? It's autism associated with mmr we are discussing. The numbers did not suddenly jump on introduction of the mmr. The same is true of Japan. When Japan discontinued the mmr the rates continued to rise as they have elsewhere. There was no drop as would be expected if mmr was the cause.

once again - they only examined children with autism - not a broad sample of all children who had been vaccinated (those with autism or not) against those who had been not been vaccinated (those with autism or not) and compared their rates of autism.

[soubresauts]

To add to the timeline I gave above...

It was Rupert Murdoch's Sunday Times (part of News Corporation) that prompted the medical establishment's hounding of Wakefield.

Murdoch's son James was appointed chairman and CEO of News Corporation (Europe, Asia and Middle East) in 2007.

February 2009: James Murdoch became a non-executive director of MMR manufacturer GlaxoSmithKline (joining Lancet proprietor Crispin Davis, the brother of the High Court judge who cut off the funding of the MMR litigants). News Corporation's vilification of Wakefield continued.

All coincidence of course. Just as the rise in ADHD, allergies, asthma, autism, diabetes, obesity and so on happens at the same time as the rise in vaccinations. All coincidence, and anybody who says otherwise is a conspiracy theorist and guilty of causing the deaths of children.

Does anyone give much thought to the ingredients of those vaccines? And the cumulative, combined effect of those ingredients being injected into a child over the first few years of life? You're sure it's all safe, are you?

Do you think the vaccines have been tested together, the way kids experience them? Well, they haven't.

[realist]

Wakefield never said that MMR alone caused autism. What he said was that because MMR was the first vaccine a child received that contained a live virus, those infants who had already had their immune system compromised, possibly by mercury in previous vaccines, were at risk of developing disorders triggered by a sudden dose of live vaccine being introduced to their system.

[river]

can we open a forum for the flat-earthers so that the rest of us can have a reasoned discussion.
the - anti- vaccine
homeopathy works
flouride rots your brain brigade
could post away there to their heart's content.

[drkpower]

All coincidence of course. Just as the rise in ADHD, allergies, asthma, autism, diabetes, obesity and so on happens at the same time as the rise in vaccinations. All coincidence, and anybody who says otherwise is a conspiracy theorist and guilty of causing the deaths of children.

Bloody 'ell; so vaccines cause all of these too?

And if your theory, as I understyand it, is that Big Pharma are making big bucks on the basis of unneeded vaccines (with the collusion of the press, governments, the medical professions and others), what is the motivation for actually causing the likes of obesity and autism? If the motivation is simply money, why not just make vaccines largely harmless? Why do they want to cause obesity and autism?

[realist]

can we open a forum for the flat-earthers so that the rest of us can have a reasoned discussion.
the - anti- vaccine
homeopathy works
flouride rots your brain brigade
could post away there to their heart's content.

Most who are anti-vaccine object to the addition of dangerous additives in particular mercury which is a universally acknowledged to be a danger to neurological development.

"Given the growing evidence of ongoing, cumulative environmental mercury exposure, it may be prudent to follow the American Academy of Pediatrics' guidelines for limiting exposure to all forms of mercury to help prevent neurodevelopmental problems in children."

1 United Tribes Technical College, Bismarck, ND, USA
2 Department of Health and Nutrition Sciences, Brooklyn College of CUNY, Brooklyn, NY, USA
3 Departments of Neuroscience and Ophthalmology, LSU Neuroscience Center. Louisiana State University Health Sciences Center, New Orleans, LA, USA
4 Carl Hayden Bee Research Center, Tucson, AZ, USA
5 Department of Chemistry and Engineering Physics, University of Wisconsin-Platteville, Platteville, WI, USA
6 Contributing Editor, Alternative Medicine Review, Durango, CO, USA
7 Institute for Agriculture and Trade Policy, Minneapolis, MN, USA
8 Institute of Neurotoxicology and Neurological Disorders, 8232 14th Avenue NE, Seattle, WA, USA
9 Shepherd University, Shepherdstown, WV, USA

In April 2009 the USA have introduced legislation to amend the Toxic Substances Control Act to phase out the use of mercury by 2011.

(1) PROHIBITION- Effective on the date 24 months after the enactment of this section, the manufacture of chlorine or caustic soda using mercury cells is prohibited in the United States and the export of any mercury, mercury cells, mercury compounds, and mixtures containing mercury by any person is prohibited.

And yet you think it is okay to inject mercury into children?

[ibis]

All coincidence of course. Just as the rise in ADHD, allergies, asthma, autism, diabetes, obesity and so on happens at the same time as the rise in vaccinations. All coincidence, and anybody who says otherwise is a conspiracy theorist and guilty of causing the deaths of children.

Those are problems, but you've chosen a simple mechanistic solution to them ("it's the stuff they're putting in the vaccines!").

Western society is over-medicalising issues, and over-medicating what we're over-medicalising, to the undoubted benefit of the pharmaceutical companies, but that's a holistic social issue, not squalene or mercury in the vaccines.

Nobody needs to 'create' obesity, or asthma, or autism - all one needs to do is identify them as medical problems requiring long-term pharmaceutical management, then broaden the definition and saturate the media with "is your child at risk?" type advertising. If necessary, one can invent a condition - you might enjoy this article ("How the US exports its mental illnesses"), if you haven't seen it already.

Nobody needs to do anything criminal, or even criminally negligent in the sense you propose - all that's needed is good old-fashioned snake-oil marketing. Worse, by misidentifying the problem, and behaving like rank nutters on the topic, you're probably doing more harm than good.

[realist]

Those are problems, but you've chosen a simple mechanistic solution to them ("it's the stuff they're putting in the vaccines!").

Western society is over-medicalising issues, and over-medicating what we're over-medicalising, to the undoubted benefit of the pharmaceutical companies, but that's a holistic social issue, not squalene or mercury in the vaccines.

If squalene or mercury is not a controversial issue why did the German government order a swine flu vaccine that did not contain these components (Cevalpan) for exclusive use by government employees, the army and employees of the Paul Ehrlich Institute?

[ibis]

If squalene or mercury is not a controversial issue why did the German government order a swine flu vaccine that did not contain these components (Cevalpan) for exclusive use by government employees, the army and employees of the Paul Ehrlich Institute?

I neither know nor care, frankly, because I didn't say it wasn't a controversial issue. I said it wasn't responsible for all the medical and pseudo-medical ills of modern society that soubresauts listed. If you want to address that point, you're addressing the right poster - if you want to talk to yourself through a straw man, you don't need me, thanks.