The Green party and rural planning.

[Schuhart]

The national coherence should stem from the interdependence of rural and urban Ireland.

Perhaps. But is that to be assumed as the key issue? Maybe it is - but it would strike me that the coherence should be us (whoever us is) recognising some thing in common. For Dev, it was the qualities of Irish speaking, Catholicism and (indeed) being rural. So if you were none of those things, you were foreign. I'm not clear on what it is that defines a commonality between 'Irish' people, to replace Dev's view. I really think that's the starting point, as I don't see how rural and urban Ireland will perceive themselves as interdependent if they've nothing actually in common. I don't see how that makes for a robust relationship.

You and I have discussed the mistakes of the past, attempting to transplant urban industrial economic solutions on rural Ireland is the most striking of those.

Grand, I'm clear now.

Ardnacrusha was the saviour of this country right up to the mid sixties and rather than developing Bord na Mona to the extent that it was, and building totally uneconomic turf burning power stations, it would surely have have made more sense to concentrate on enhancing the role of the Shannon in draining and remediating the agricultural value of vast tracts of the midlands and west, thereby enhancing the usefullness of rural Ireland to the country as a whole and creating long lasting and sustainable industries, rooted firmly in the fabric of the environment.

That sounds reasonable to me.

As regards Tesco, it is perhaps the most reliant company in Ireland on the charity of the EU agricultural policies.

I don't necessarily disagree, I just don't know what it is you have in mind here.

Obviously, when I say Tesco have more of a social commitment to me than the IFA, I'm being deliberately provocative. That said, I also feel its a strong and valid image. When Tesco act as my intermediary with Irish farming, I can be pretty sure I'll get edible produce at a price I want to pay. The IFA, on the other hand, would be quite happy to shove unsafe bacon down my throat, snatch my money, and walk off not caring too much if I choked to death shortly afterwards.

My problem remains that Tesco, warts and all, is a more effective defender of my interests that any domestic authority. I've never sensed that the IFA, or any other agricultural body, was especially interested in being of service to me.

[Christel]

But I'd start by saying a coherent society has to have some assumption of a shared journey. I don't think we have that, and I'm not sure how it can be created when it doesn't exist.

What I mean is someone like Charley would have to define his identity as 'Irish' rather than 'Donegal'.
That's not answering your question about what role there would be for rural Ireland in a coherent society. But that's partly because I think we have to start by defining what a coherent society is. In a sense, starting from a position of 'where do rural areas fit into this' undermines the coherence concept. The first question is, surely, who do we feel we share a common destiny with. The next is what do we feel we can contribute. The question after that, imho, is what do we expect to get in return for our participation.

I don't know if any of that gets us anywhere. But it is the best answer I can manage right now. I actually don't see where coherence can emerge from, as I don't see where the shared interest lies.

I may be wrong but it seems you have a picture of a coherent society relying on an Irish identity? I may be wrong.

If I'm not: I think this is exactly the wrong approach. I think the emphasis on Irish and "national" has done more harm than good. I would think a coherent society is based on and must incorporate diversity: of regions, communities, interests, geographics etc., and interchange between these diversities. I think this society lacks coherence because diversity and interchange was not fostered. It's so static, and approaches attemted like the National Spatial Strategy and others are top down. No organic developments from bottom up. It's probably too late now anyway.

[Schuhart]

I may be wrong but it seems you have a picture of a coherent society relying on an Irish identity? I may be wrong.

What I'm saying is that Dev's picture of a coherent society relied on a particular version of what 'Irish identity' meant. And, if we did all want to be Irish-speaking rural Catholics, Dev's vision might have even worked. We would have been materially poor - but Dev explicitly said he'd no interest in promoting material wealth.

I'm not particularly saying that the coherence in our society has to come from a national identity. But I do think it needs more than a commitment to 'diversity'. To work, a society needs to have some shared idea of what our rights and responsibilities are to each other. A commitment to 'diversity' doesn't tell me if (for the sake of argument) protection of the rural environment is important or, conversely, if the rural environment is something we should consume until there's none left. Do you see what I mean? The embracing of 'diversity' is something that happens within the society - you first need to figure out what the society is.

I think this society lacks coherence because diversity and interchange was not fostered. It's so static, and approaches attemted like the National Spatial Strategy and others are top down. No organic developments from bottom up. It's probably too late now anyway.

You could be right about it being too late, if there was ever a time for it. I mean, where is the evidence of any bottom up development? So-called local initiative generally just involves banging on the door of central government for money, like this kind of thing. It rarely consists of local people mobilising local resources to achieve some common goal.

[Christel]

What I'm saying is that Dev's picture of a coherent society relied on a particular version of what 'Irish identity' meant. And, if we did all want to be Irish-speaking rural Catholics, Dev's vision might have even worked. We would have been materially poor - but Dev explicitly said he'd no interest in promoting material wealth.

I'm not particularly saying that the coherence in our society has to come from a national identity. But I do think it needs more than a commitment to 'diversity'. To work, a society needs to have some shared idea of what our rights and responsibilities are to each other. A commitment to 'diversity' doesn't tell me if (for the sake of argument) protection of the rural environment is important or, conversely, if the rural environment is something we should consume until there's none left. Do you see what I mean? The embracing of 'diversity' is something that happens within the society - you first need to figure out what the society is.You could be right about it being too late, if there was ever a time for it. I mean, where is the evidence of any bottom up development? So-called local initiative generally just involves banging on the door of central government for money, like this kind of thing. It rarely consists of local people mobilising local resources to achieve some common goal.

I hadn't in mind a "commitment" to diversity. I was rather thinking that diversity historically hadn't happened. Probably because the Irish collective mind after independence got stuck with "Irish independence" and "Irish"/"national" was overemphasized. But diversity still seems to be an unwelcommed idea.

Of course Ireland lacks a whole lot of history and democratic habits that in many other countries were developed over centuries on a local, not national level, to a large extent in towns.

I understand what you mean by questioning so called local initiatives. When reading about County Council meetings its members either call on the government for help, or to protest to it, or would wish to ignore national laws entirely if they could. But that's probably because County Councils have no independence, not even in parts. They are mainly administrative arms of the government, aren't they? Why Councillors are needed in such a situation is a question.

[Schuhart]

I hadn't in mind a "commitment" to diversity. I was rather thinking that diversity historically hadn't happened. Probably because the Irish collective mind after independence got stuck with "Irish independence" and "Irish"/"national" was overemphasized. But diversity still seems to be an unwelcomed idea.

I'm not clear on how diversity, as you mean it, might manifest itself. We might be talking of two different - if connected - things. My point is more that the community needs some kind of common agreement on what its about to organise coherently. To take an extreme example, we might decide that we had no particular hang-ups about nudity, but had a strong shared value that financial services needed to be soundly provided. That might be manifested by having a particularly effective Financial Regulator. But there would be complete acceptance of diversity in dress, so individual staff of that Financial Regulator might turn up for work in suits or stark naked.

I'm not sure if I'm getting my point across at all there. I'm agreeing that national identity is only one way that a society can create a coherent myth. But I do feel we need some common understanding between us all, that guides what we can reasonably expect others to share and what we can reasonably expect others to want us to share, within some overall belief that we will all gain from such an arrangement.

When reading about County Council meetings its members either call on the government for help, or to protest to it, or would wish to ignore national laws entirely if they could. But that's probably because County Councils have no independence, not even in parts. They are mainly administrative arms of the government, aren't they? Why Councillors are needed in such a situation is a question.

Tis true, its hard to see a positive contribution from them, and people do expect national uniformity in public service delivery - as you say, there's not much demand for diversity.

[damiet]

Greens have come out string in defence of special areas of conservation, on not placing a massive burden on local authorities and not damaging our vital tourism industry.
This is a policy that we win us support from tourism sectors, environmentalists and a broad section of the electorate that wants to preserve our heritage. The Green Party does not respond to claims of 'you hate the countryside' or 'you and ye're anti-rural policies'.

Our Tourism Industry has been damaged but not because of 'planning', or lack of 'conservation' but because we are loosing our identity as a Nation, the essence that made us unique as an Island. Blame Ryanair for cheap travel, they came but never left!!

[charley]

www.FoggyMaster.com: Discover Donegal Advert (Spoof)

[Christel]

Our Tourism Industry has been damaged but not because of 'planning', or lack of 'conservation' but because we are loosing our identity as a Nation, the essence that made us unique as an Island. Blame Ryanair for cheap travel, they came but never left!!

This "identity as a Nation" thing, and promoting Ireland as such to tourists: I often thought it's not good for tourism. It kind of says: "Visit anywhere in Ireland: and you've experienced it. It's everywhere the same. You'll find the Irish identity, hospitality, friendliness everywhere, doesn't matter where yo go to on the island."

Instead promoting places and regions and their distinctiveness may attract tourists differently and more frequently.

I feel, as a former frequent tourist to various countries and regions, people like to get a sense of place when they travel abroad, not "a sence of country" or of "national identity".

At least those who would consider "Ireland" as a destination. I don't have in mind those who are happy with any Spanish or other mediterranean beach holiday, like many Irish themselves in recent years were.

[bboruimhe]

Perhaps. But is that to be assumed as the key issue? Maybe it is - but it would strike me that the coherence should be us (whoever us is) recognising some thing in common. For Dev, it was the qualities of Irish speaking, Catholicism and (indeed) being rural. So if you were none of those things, you were foreign. I'm not clear on what it is that defines a commonality between 'Irish' people, to replace Dev's view. I really think that's the starting point, as I don't see how rural and urban Ireland will perceive themselves as interdependent if they've nothing actually in common. I don't see how that makes for a robust relationship.Grand, I'm clear now.That sounds reasonable to me.I don't necessarily disagree, I just don't know what it is you have in mind here.

Obviously, when I say Tesco have more of a social commitment to me than the IFA, I'm being deliberately provocative. That said, I also feel its a strong and valid image. When Tesco act as my intermediary with Irish farming, I can be pretty sure I'll get edible produce at a price I want to pay. The IFA, on the other hand, would be quite happy to shove unsafe bacon down my throat, snatch my money, and walk off not caring too much if I choked to death shortly afterwards.

My problem remains that Tesco, warts and all, is a more effective defender of my interests that any domestic authority. I've never sensed that the IFA, or any other agricultural body, was especially interested in being of service to me.

There was a recent scandal about Tesco falsely labelling meat as Irish when it actually came from some other country. Tesco declined to comment, I won't shop there again on principle.

[Schuhart]

There was a recent scandal about Tesco falsely labelling meat as Irish when it actually came from some other country. Tesco declined to comment, I won't shop there again on principle.

Clearly, transparency in food origin is vital. But is the issue you are talking about the one where Tesco (and Aldi/Lidl) include stuff sourced from Norn Iron as Irish?