Are the Greens proping up the government for their Oireachtas pensions?

[spidermom]

Curious you should mention that. I'm one of the people pushing the idea that the Greens should have a third Senate seat, and part of my argument is based on points you have made in the past.

I presume this means that ye know know where your liathroidi are now...a good thing I would have thought...but the irony of you commenting on the tweedle dum politicking by others...while you're pushing for No 3 senator is not lost on me!!!!


I admire your loyalty to the cause BTW...and you firmly believe that you're fighting the good fight...but you have lost me as a voter I'm afraid ...and a lot of others too..

[Baron von Biffo]

So it should go to a Fine Gael member?

But that would be to ignore the fact that FG were as complicit in the boIIoxology that got us into this mess as FF and Labour, whereas the Greens are the only Party with a plan for getting us out of this mess.


Do you want more of the same, or do you want change?

In as much as the senate can be democratic giving the seat to FG or Lab would be closest to the most recent expression of the voters will.

You might believe the Greens have a plan, and you're perfectly entitled to but the voters don't agree. They see a party that sold out every principle it had for 2 seats at cabinet and a bit of fluting around with light bulbs and car tax.

[SPN]

In as much as the senate can be democratic giving the seat to FG or Lab would be closest to the most recent expression of the voters will.

You might believe the Greens have a plan, and you're perfectly entitled to but the voters don't agree. They see a party that sold out every principle it had for 2 seats at cabinet and a bit of fluting around with light bulbs and car tax.

So what do we need to do to get the voters to see the reality, and not the negative self serving spin of FG and Labour?

[SPN]

I presume this means that ye know know where your liathroidi are now...a good thing I would have thought...but the irony of you commenting on the tweedle dum politicking by others...while you're pushing for No 3 senator is not lost on me!!!!

Quite the opposite in fact.

The Greens have been pushing for major reform of the way the Oireachtas operates, particularly in respect of the huge amounts of money Oireachtas members get for doing nothing - unvouched expenses, mileage allowances, overnight expenses, Committee Chairs, Ministerial Pensions, long service top-ups, and (my favourite) Junior Ministers salary uplift.

The three establishment Parties have consistently refused to make changes.

This is not the Greens vs FF, this is the Greens vs FF, FG and Labour.

The system needs changing, but the only way to change the system is to do it from within. You see a third Senator as the Greens milking the system, whereas I see it as an opportunity to increase the rate of change.

I admire your loyalty to the cause BTW...and you firmly believe that you're fighting the good fight...but you have lost me as a voter I'm afraid ...and a lot of others too..

I know!

But, as we have discussed before, we have lost you because we haven't brought you with us. The Greens haven't changed. They still subscribe to the same beliefs and values. The former supporters still subscribe to the same beliefs and values. Why is there a disconnect?

We all want to achieve the same goal (as John Gormley made very clear on Q&A tonight), but we differ in the mechanics, the timescale, and the politics.

[spidermom]

Quite the opposite in fact.

The Greens have been pushing for major reform of the way the Oireachtas operates, particularly in respect of the huge amounts of money Oireachtas members get for doing nothing - unvouched expenses, mileage allowances, overnight expenses, Committee Chairs, Ministerial Pensions, long service top-ups, and (my favourite) Junior Ministers salary uplift.

The three establishment Parties have consistently refused to make changes.

This is not the Greens vs FF, this is the Greens vs FF, FG and Labour.

The system needs changing, but the only way to change the system is to do it from within. You see a third Senator as the Greens milking the system, whereas I see it as an opportunity to increase the rate of change.




I know!

But, as we have discussed before, we have lost you because we haven't brought you with us. The Greens haven't changed. They still subscribe to the same beliefs and values. The former supporters still subscribe to the same beliefs and values. Why is there a disconnect?

We all want to achieve the same goal (as John Gormley made very clear on Q&A tonight), but we differ in the mechanics, the timescale, and the politics.

Check out the difference between your sig and mine...and there is the route cause of our difference!!!!!

You can't say you still subscribe to to the same beliefs and values after what you have allowed in health and education!


and as i said I do not believe you are hanging in to collect pensions and the like...that I do believe...but to be plugging for a senator when the 2 you have don't even turn up to votes????...fail to see what change you gonna make there!!...another Green senator talking the talk??...but walking the government walk....



Oh and BTW how dare M White crib about the money in the Crumlin foundation...if it wasn't for that foundation..most of the new developements in Crumlin(research and developement) would NOT have been carried out.....apppaling statement to say that monies raised for research should be used to bail out the governments failure to fund hospitals adequately!!!!

[Baron von Biffo]

So what do we need to do to get the voters to see the reality, and not the negative self serving spin of FG and Labour?

A good start would be to stop attacking the opposition. It's the job of government to govern not whinge when the opposition opposes. Next they need to get some Green policies implemented. Finally you could say the little Burns prayer - 'Oh wad some power the giftie gie us. To see oursel's as others see us!'

Here's a little experiment for you. Arm yourself with a clipboard and go somewhere you're not known. Ask 10 strangers at random to name 3 policies the greens abandoned to get into government. Now ask them to name 3 policies the Greens implemented in government.

My guess is you'll have no problem filling the first list but if anyone gives 3 answers to the second they'll turn out to be a Green party member.

[SPN]

A good start would be to stop attacking the opposition. It's the job of government to govern not whinge when the opposition opposes. Next they need to get some Green policies implemented. Finally you could say the little Burns prayer - 'Oh wad some power the giftie gie us. To see oursel's as others see us!'

I only attack the opposition when they are hypocritical.

Here's a little experiment for you. Arm yourself with a clipboard and go somewhere you're not known. Ask 10 strangers at random to name 3 policies the greens abandoned to get into government. Now ask them to name 3 policies the Greens implemented in government.

My guess is you'll have no problem filling the first list but if anyone gives 3 answers to the second they'll turn out to be a Green party member.

I totally agree with you!

[SPN]

Check out the difference between your sig and mine...and there is the route cause of our difference!!!!!

You can't say you still subscribe to to the same beliefs and values after what you have allowed in health and education!

I do. But I have a different perspective as to what can be achieved in the current climate.

Education: €305 million extra this year, but nobody criticises the Teachers for putting it in their pockets when it could have been used to improve services.

Health: If you want proper meaningful change in Health you will need to see 30-50 Green TDs. Nothing else will provide the mandate for change that is required.

and as i said I do not believe you are hanging in to collect pensions and the like...that I do believe...but to be plugging for a senator when the 2 you have don't even turn up to votes????...fail to see what change you gonna make there!!...another Green senator talking the talk??...but walking the government walk....

Walking the Green walk.

"It took a little time but we're in this fight, ain't going home til we've done what's right" - Steve Earle.

Oh and BTW how dare M White crib about the money in the Crumlin foundation...if it wasn't for that foundation..most of the new developements in Crumlin(research and developement) would NOT have been carried out.....apppaling statement to say that monies raised for research should be used to bail out the governments failure to fund hospitals adequately!!!!

I think it should be obvious by now that the problem isn't just Government funding.

There are other issues that need to be addressed too - like Unions protecting the worse than useless from being given their P45s.

[Lloyd-Apjohn]

The moment you put a sleveen gombeen like Bertie Ahern back in power you signed the death warrant of the Greens and there is no going back now.

I can not wait to slam the door in the face of a Green canvasser again and watch you crying into your smoothie when you all lose your seats at the next election but of course you'll have the new jobs in the private sector lined up to ease the pain and Cuffe can count the moeny his investments in Halliburton and various Oil firms have grown.

[amblincork]

So it should go to a Fine Gael member?

But that would be to ignore the fact that FG were as complicit in the boIIoxology that got us into this mess as FF and Labour, whereas the Greens are the only Party with a plan for getting us out of this mess.


Do you want more of the same, or do you want change?

Croneyism, jobs for the boys etc, etc...