Greens see benefits of centralisation

[Schuhart]

In fairness, I do believe the Greens at least attempt to relate to reality. That puts them ahead of other parties we could mention. But it strikes me that they need to push just a little further to embrace the reality of Irish life, and consider what some of their principles actually mean in practice.

From their website we helpfully get a statement of their principles. The include

All political, social and economic decisions should be taken at the lowest effective level

which they apparently expand in their party Constitution as favouring

More decision-making at Community level

Yet we have Dan Boyle seeing the benefits of centralisation in the HSE (which I don’t argue with), and John Gormley overruling Mayo County Council as, presumably, he can see they are simply incapable of responsible decision making.

In a situation where, in practice, Green politicians can apparently see that decentralising decision making is a recipe for increased gob************************ery, do the Greens need to revisit their core principles? Is there not a missing link – which is developing Irish people so that they are capable of responsible citizenship?

[Fnarr-Fnarr]

I think the emphasis is on the word "effective".

When Mayo CC decide to concrete over half the county, thats not what we regard as "effective" decision making.

[meriwether]

This is the very question I posed yesterday on the Mayo thread - local planning in an Irish context leads to bad planning.

Gormley has recognised this by overruling Monaghan and now Mayo development plans (Im not making a value judgement on either plan, BTW), yet, as said above, the Greens are all about local Government/ decentralised Government.

What we need is competent planning. Going the opposite to the crrent situation - purely centralised planning - wont work either, as it is inevitable decisions being made from Dublin will lack local knowledge provided by input from said locals. And it would be a massive job also.

So somehow, we need to correct our current situation, rather than scrap it.

Elect better councillors? Yeah, Ill believe that when I see it.

Moving on to the other aspects of centralisation - on Health, the creation of the HSE is the correct theory.

The execution is appalling.

On decentralisation of the civil service, alos the correct theory. Its un-executable however, and so isn't actually the correct policy.

[mccafferty cat]

I think the emphasis is on the word "effective".

When Mayo CC decide to concrete over half the county, thats not what we regard as "effective" decision making.

Interesting that you chose not to highlight the HSE as an example of effective centralised decision-making.

Is Dan Boyle wrong on that do you think?

[cferrie]

This is the very question I posed yesterday on the Mayo thread - local planning in an Irish context leads to bad planning.

Gormley has recognised this by overruling Monaghan and now Mayo development plans (Im not making a value judgement on either plan, BTW), yet, as said above, the Greens are all about local Government/ decentralised Government.

What we need is competent planning. Going the opposite to the crrent situation - purely centralised planning - wont work either, as it is inevitable decisions being made from Dublin will lack local knowledge provided by input from said locals. And it would be a massive job also.

So somehow, we need to correct our current situation, rather than scrap it.

Elect better councillors? Yeah, Ill believe that when I see it.

Moving on to the other aspects of centralisation - on Health, the creation of the HSE is the correct theory.

The execution is appalling.

On decentralisation of the civil service, alos the correct theory. Its un-executable however, and so isn't actually the correct policy.

In fairness the Greens have detailed policies on Local and Regional Government reform which would help to avoid the kinds of "mistakes" made in Mayo and Monaghan while still empowering local communities to effect change in their own area -
URL Green policy on Regional and Local Government

[ibis]

On decentralisation of the civil service, alos the correct theory. Its un-executable however, and so isn't actually the correct policy.

Hmm. It's the right word, anyway. However, all it meant was shuffling packets of civil servants around the country, rather than any localisation of decision-making. It remains a uniquely Irish use of the term.

[Schuhart]

So somehow, we need to correct our current situation, rather than scrap it.

I think that’s the real question. What would actually improve things? As I see it, the problem is simply that elected representatives reflect what their electorates demand. Getting straight to the point, if the electorate are gob************************es, how do we improve things? Get a new electorate? Disenfranchise people if an objective test identifies them as gob************************es? I’m half taking the mick when I say that, but only half.

What concrete measure gets improves things? In present circumstances, I just don’t see the Green ‘core value’ of local empowerment as having any relevance to the reality of our condition. And, now that they’ve been exposed to Government, their national politicians would seem to agree.

In fairness the Greens have detailed policies on Local and Regional Government reform which would help to avoid the kinds of "mistakes" made in Mayo and Monaghan while still empowering local communities to effect change in their own area -
URL Green policy on Regional and Local Government

I don’t see how any of that addresses the issue. That all seems to be about giving more power to local authorities. In the current cases, that would mean that Minister Gormley would be unable to intervene in Mayo and that the HSE would not exist, so the possibility of the operational savings that Dan Boyle supports would not arise.

The question would seem to be quite clear in the Mayo case – the relevant Green Minister can see that the Mayo electorate does not return representatives with the qualities needed to take on the functions envisaged in the Green policies to which you refer in your post above.

Far from being a response to the issue raised, the material you supply only deepens the relevance of the original query. How do the Greens envisage that these local powers can be exercised when the evidence is that local communities cannot be trusted to exercise the powers they have at present? What is the missing link that makes their policies feasible?

Let me say – I don’t know.

On decentralisation of the civil service, alos the correct theory. Its un-executable however, and so isn't actually the correct policy.

Hmm. It's the right word, anyway. However, all it meant was shuffling packets of civil servants around the country, rather than any localisation of decision-making. It remains a uniquely Irish use of the term.

I think, for purposes of this thread, what you say is understood.

[goosebump]

In fairness, I do believe the Greens at least attempt to relate to reality. That puts them ahead of other parties we could mention. But it strikes me that they need to push just a little further to embrace the reality of Irish life, and consider what some of their principles actually mean in practice.

From their website we helpfully get a statement of their principles. The include

All political, social and economic decisions should be taken at the lowest effective level

which they apparently expand in their party Constitution as favouring[quote:23cw37br]More decision-making at Community level

Yet we have Dan Boyle seeing the benefits of centralisation in the HSE (which I don’t argue with), and John Gormley overruling Mayo County Council as, presumably, he can see they are simply incapable of responsible decision making.

In a situation where, in practice, Green politicians can apparently see that decentralising decision making is a recipe for increased gob************************ery, do the Greens need to revisit their core principles? Is there not a missing link – which is developing Irish people so that they are capable of responsible citizenship?[/quote:23cw37br]


Important decisions can be made at local level providing they are consistent with national strategies. Obviously, you can't have mini-legislatures all over the shop and explain it away as 'Local Democracy'.

The general principle of the "lowest effective level" is sound, and is reflected in the EU principle of subsidiarity. The way the GP has translated this into its Constitution ie 'more decision making at Community level' is a little loose, and open to criticism. However, planning is something that needs to be removed from the remit of Government altogether. Planning Law and Strategy should obviously be framed by the Oireachtas, but planning decisions, including zoning decisions, should be a purely Executive function.

We don't allow politicians to make decisions like what funds we invest the National Pension Reserve in, or what route a national road should take, so its beyond me why we allow them make zoning decisions.

[meriwether]

On decentralisation of the civil service, alos the correct theory. Its un-executable however, and so isn't actually the correct policy.

Hmm. It's the right word, anyway. However, all it meant was shuffling packets of civil servants around the country, rather than any localisation of decision-making. It remains a uniquely Irish use of the term.

There is no reason why there should be a concentration of civil servants in an area, barring the most critical ones.

However there's no point in spreading them around now. Property prices, bad planning and Unions put paid to that.

[ibis]

On decentralisation of the civil service, alos the correct theory. Its un-executable however, and so isn't actually the correct policy.

Hmm. It's the right word, anyway. However, all it meant was shuffling packets of civil servants around the country, rather than any localisation of decision-making. It remains a uniquely Irish use of the term.

There is no reason why there should be a concentration of civil servants in an area, barring the most critical ones.

However there's no point in spreading them around now. Property prices, bad planning and Unions put paid to that.

The logic of having an administrative centre hasn't really changed over the years - access by civil servants to each other first and foremost, and a single place you can go to deal with all the bureaucracy, as opposed to having to go to Cavan to talk to BIM, and then down to Caherciveen to talk to the Equality Authority - to do which, of course, someone from Cavan will probably have to go via Dublin anyway. It was never anything but a vote-grab.