Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 26

Thread: "Defeated" Israel negotiates with Lebanon

  1. #1
    Politics.ie Regular cyberianpan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Wherever I can see
    Posts
    23,136

    "Defeated" Israel negotiates with Lebanon

    CNN

    JEDDAH, Saudi Arabia (AP) -- U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan said Monday that Israel and Hezbollah have agreed to indirect talks for the release of two abducted Israeli soldiers and that he would appoint a mediator.

    It would be the first time that Israel has publicly agreed to indirect contacts with the Lebanese guerrilla group over winning the release of the two soldiers, snatched in a cross-border raid on July 12.

    Their capture sparked a massive Israeli offensive against Hezbollah that lasted 34 days until a U.N.-arranged cease-fire.

    ...

    Annan's spokesman, Ahmed Fawzi, said Israel and Hezbollah had both requested that Annan mediate in the prisoner issue.

    I think most people on this site would be happy to say that Hezbollah are bad people. Leaving aside whether we think that Israel behaved in a moral fashion recently - did it play smart ?

    They are now negotiating with their enemy- what was all the bombing for ? What I find very peculiar is that few Israeli or US hawks ever seem to be willing to reflect on their strategies. Of course these are "matters of national security" ... This is nonsense - Israel & US are dominant military powers, they can afford to be open & transparent about their tactics.

    It looks increasingly likely that whilst they may have the dollars, the well equipped armies, they don't have the strategists. It strikes that one of the principle drivers of humanities betterment over the past 500 years has been opennes, transparency & willingnes to challenge ideas. Are the military just yellow-bellied incompetents ?


    cYp
    "Yawn , am I alive yet ?"

  2. #2
    Politics.ie Regular
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    881

    cyb:
    "I think most people on this site would be happy to say that Hezbollah are bad people"

    Really? What's bad about them ?

    And by what moral blindness don't you have a similar epithet for the Israelis, who recently killed 25 civilians for every civilian that your "bad people" (sic) killed?

    You even wonder "whether we think that Israel behaved in a moral fashion recently". 1000 corpses and you're still flapping around.

    Are you insane or just inane?
    GD

  3. #3
    Politics.ie Regular
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Posts
    349

    Quote Originally Posted by georgedillon
    cyb:
    "I think most people on this site would be happy to say that Hezbollah are bad people"

    Really? What's bad about them ?

    And by what moral blindness don't you have a similar epithet for the Israelis, who recently killed 25 civilians for every civilian that your "bad people" (sic) killed?

    You even wonder "whether we think that Israel behaved in a moral fashion recently". 1000 corpses and you're still flapping around.

    Are you insane or just inane?
    GD
    Just because Israel killed more civillians than Hezbollah does not make Hezbollah innocent angels. Both sides are in urgent need of an injection of moral rectitude.
    Quot capita, tot sententia

  4. #4
    SPN
    SPN is online now
    Politics.ie Regular
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Posts
    9,748

    Re: "Defeated" Israel negotiates with Lebanon

    Quote Originally Posted by cyberianpan
    I think most people on this site would be happy to say that Hezbollah are bad people.
    Relative to who?


    Leaving aside whether we think that Israel behaved in a moral fashion recently - did it play smart ?
    It tried, but people are very weary of PR BS after 6 years of Bush, Blair and Bertie.


    They are now negotiating with their enemy- what was all the bombing for?
    To kill Lebanese Civilians!

    The only good Raghead is a dead raghead - and all that!



    What I find very peculiar is that few Israeli or US hawks ever seem to be willing to reflect on their strategies. Of course these are "matters of national security" ... This is nonsense - Israel & US are dominant military powers, they can afford to be open & transparent about their tactics.
    Were!

    Were "dominant military powers"

    Afghanistan, Iraq, Lebanon.

    How many times do the WingNuts need to have their butts kicked before they realise that Michael Collins wasn't the first to kick Imperialist Butt, and that Nasrallah won't be the last?

    Go read Irving's "Uprising" if you haven't a clue as to how it works.

    It looks increasingly likely that whilst they may have the dollars, the well equipped armies, they don't have the strategists. It strikes that one of the principle drivers of humanities betterment over the past 500 years has been opennes, transparency & willingnes to challenge ideas. Are the military just yellow-bellied incompetents ?
    a) princiPAL

    b) do you know who invented the decimal system?


    It is also worth noting that the Israelis are now agreeing to negotiate the release of the THOUSANDS of Lebanese hostages that they hold, for the TWO Israeli hostages that the Lebanese hold.

    Maybe they will also agree to negotiate the release of the HUNDREDS of Palestinian hostages they hold - including Palestinian Government Ministers - for the ONE Israeli Soldier held by palestinian forces.


    Israel needs to be relocated to a less offensive location, the WingNuts need to be relocated to federal penitentiaries, and their apologists need to wake up and smell the cordite.

    If you keep doing what you've been doing, you'll keep getting the results you've been getting.

    I thinks it's time the NeoCon con was despatched to the recycling bin, and we got back to reality.
    "Always do right. This will gratify some people and astonish the rest." Mark Twain

    “When a government is dependent upon bankers for money, they and not the leaders of the government control the situation, since the hand that gives is above the hand that takes. Money has no motherland; financiers are without patriotism and without decency; their sole object is gain.” Napoléon Bonaparte

  5. #5
    Politics.ie Regular
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    2,380

    Re: "Defeated" Israel negotiates with Lebanon

    Quote Originally Posted by SPN
    Quote Originally Posted by cyberianpan


    It tried, but people are very weary of PR BS after 6 years of Bush, Blair and Bertie.

    :
    Israel needs to be relocated to a less offensive location
    Its clear that neo-cons don't have a monopoly on messianism or stupidity.
    There was pleasure in paradise, but no excitement - Milan Kundera

  6. #6
    Politics.ie Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Drexciya
    Posts
    781

    Re: "Defeated" Israel negotiates with Lebanon

    Quote Originally Posted by cyberianpan

    It looks increasingly likely that whilst they may have the dollars, the well equipped armies, they don't have the strategists.
    They have plenty of strategists:
    The Israeli Defence Forces have been heavily influenced by contemporary philosophy, highlighting the fact that there is considerable overlap among theoretical texts deemed essential by military academies and architectural schools.

    The attack conducted by units of the Israeli Defence Forces (IDF) on the city of Nablus in April 2002 was described by its commander, Brigadier-General Aviv Kokhavi, as ‘inverse geometry’, which he explained as ‘the reorganization of the urban syntax by means of a series of micro-tactical actions’.1 During the battle soldiers moved within the city across hundreds of metres of ‘overground tunnels’ carved out through a dense and contiguous urban structure. Although several thousand soldiers and Palestinian guerrillas were manoeuvring simultaneously in the city, they were so ‘saturated’ into the urban fabric that very few would have been visible from the air. Furthermore, they used none of the city’s streets, roads, alleys or courtyards, or any of the external doors, internal stairwells and windows, but moved horizontally through walls and vertically through holes blasted in ceilings and floors. This form of movement, described by the military as ‘infestation’, seeks to redefine inside as outside, and domestic interiors as thoroughfares. The IDF’s strategy of ‘walking through walls’ involves a conception of the city as not just the site but also the very medium of warfare – a flexible, almost liquid medium that is forever contingent and in flux.

    Contemporary military theorists are now busy re-conceptualizing the urban domain. At stake are the underlying concepts, assumptions and principles that determine military strategies and tactics. The vast intellectual field that geographer Stephen Graham has called an international ‘shadow world’ of military urban research institutes and training centres that have been established to rethink military operations in cities could be understood as somewhat similar to the international matrix of élite architectural academies. However, according to urban theorist Simon Marvin, the military-architectural ‘shadow world’ is currently generating more intense and well-funded urban research programmes than all these university programmes put together, and is certainly aware of the avant-garde urban research conducted in architectural institutions, especially as regards Third World and African cities. There is a considerable overlap among the theoretical texts considered essential by military academies and architectural schools. Indeed, the reading lists of contemporary military institutions include works from around 1968 (with a special emphasis on the writings of Gilles Deleuze, Félix Guattari and Guy Debord), as well as more contemporary writings on urbanism, psychology, cybernetics, post-colonial and post-Structuralist theory. If, as some writers claim, the space for criticality has withered away in late 20th-century capitalist culture, it seems now to have found a place to flourish in the military.

    ...

    Although you do not need Deleuze to attack Nablus, theory helped the military reorganize by providing a new language in which to speak to itself and others. A ‘smart weapon’ theory has both a practical and a discursive function in redefining urban warfare. The practical or tactical function, the extent to which Deleuzian theory influences military tactics and manoeuvres, raises questions about the relation between theory and practice. Theory obviously has the power to stimulate new sensibilities, but it may also help to explain, develop or even justify ideas that emerged independently within disparate fields of knowledge and with quite different ethical bases. In discursive terms, war – if it is not a total war of annihilation – constitutes a form of discourse between enemies. Every military action is meant to communicate something to the enemy. Talk of ‘swarming’, ‘targeted killings’ and ‘smart destruction’ help the military communicate to its enemies that it has the capacity to effect far greater destruction. Raids can thus be projected as the more moderate alternative to the devastating capacity that the military actually possesses and will unleash if the enemy exceeds the ‘acceptable’ level of violence or breaches some unspoken agreement. In terms of military operational theory it is essential never to use one’s full destructive capacity but rather to maintain the potential to escalate the level of atrocity. Otherwise threats become meaningless.

    When the military talks theory to itself, it seems to be about changing its organizational structure and hierarchies. When it invokes theory in communications with the public – in lectures, broadcasts and publications – it seems to be about projecting an image of a civilized and sophisticated military. And when the military ‘talks’ (as every military does) to the enemy, theory could be understood as a particularly intimidating weapon of ‘shock and awe’, the message being: ‘You will never even understand that which kills you.’
    From Frieze Magazine, by Eyal Weizman

    Quote Originally Posted by cyberianpan
    Are the military just yellow-bellied incompetents ?
    The nature of warfare has changed radically from the recent past.
    I don't think any modern military has adapted effectively to the change.

  7. #7
    Politics.ie Newbie
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    10

    Quote Originally Posted by georgedillon
    cyb:
    "I think most people on this site would be happy to say that Hezbollah are bad people"

    Really? What's bad about them ?
    well i'd have to say their terror campaign thats aimed at killing as many civilians as they can, the fact that they rouse others to fight against israel, they rarly see the consequences of their actions which leads innocents to be killed in retribution and they will continue as they don't care how many people wil die for them to realise their goal.. i would have to call these type of people quite comprehensivly bad

    Quote Originally Posted by georgedillon
    And by what moral blindness don't you have a similar epithet for the Israelis, who recently killed 25 civilians for every civilian that your "bad people" (sic) killed?
    he never said isreal were good but they did start a campaign in an effort to save lives not take them.

  8. #8
    SPN
    SPN is online now
    Politics.ie Regular
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Posts
    9,748

    Israeli officials 'face war crimes risk'

    Israel's public officials have been told to watch what they say in public about the Lebanese and Palestinian conflicts for fear of being prosecuted for war crimes, political sources say.

    The sources say the foreign ministry has established a legal team to deal with efforts by foreign groups to arrange the prosecution abroad of Israelis involved in the war against Hezbollah guerrillas and crackdowns on Palestinians.

    A ministry memorandum issued to Israel's military and other government agencies urges officials to avoid belligerent remarks that could potentially be used to back up allegations they were complicit in excessive use of force in Lebanon or Gaza.

    .....

    On Sunday, the Yediot Aharonot newspaper said that under secret talks negotiated by Egypt, Israel could release up to 800 Palestinian prisoners in return for Shalit.

    Israel has demanded Shalit's unconditional release, but local media have reported that talks have been under way for several weeks.
    "Always do right. This will gratify some people and astonish the rest." Mark Twain

    “When a government is dependent upon bankers for money, they and not the leaders of the government control the situation, since the hand that gives is above the hand that takes. Money has no motherland; financiers are without patriotism and without decency; their sole object is gain.” Napoléon Bonaparte

  9. #9
    Politics.ie Regular cyberianpan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Wherever I can see
    Posts
    23,136

    Re: "Defeated" Israel negotiates with Lebanon

    Quote Originally Posted by SPN
    Quote Originally Posted by cyberianpan
    I think most people on this site would be happy to say that Hezbollah are bad people.
    Relative to who?
    .
    Hmmmmm, in my world bad is bad. Indiscriminate firing of rockets at unarmed civilians is not good. In no way am I condoning Israel's actions, just making clear that Hezbollah are not good people.

    Quote Originally Posted by SPN
    Quote Originally Posted by cyberianpan
    What I find very peculiar is that few Israeli or US hawks ever seem to be willing to reflect on their strategies. Of course these are "matters of national security" ... This is nonsense - Israel & US are dominant military powers, they can afford to be open & transparent about their tactics.
    Were!

    Were "dominant military powers"

    Afghanistan, Iraq, Lebanon.

    How many times do the WingNuts need to have their butts kicked before they realise that Michael Collins wasn't the first to kick Imperialist Butt, and that Nasrallah won't be the last?
    .
    In physical terms they are dominant military powers. They tower over others. However they've yet to learn that physical miliatry dominance is quite a thin thing. An insurgency can fight them to a stalemate.





    Quote Originally Posted by SPN
    Quote Originally Posted by cyberianpan
    It looks increasingly likely that whilst they may have the dollars, the well equipped armies, they don't have the strategists. It strikes that one of the principle drivers of humanities betterment over the past 500 years has been opennes, transparency & willingnes to challenge ideas. Are the military just yellow-bellied incompetents ?
    a) princiPAL

    .
    Thank you

    Quote Originally Posted by SPN
    b) do you know who invented the decimal system?
    .
    Without researching it I'll give a rough answer (as I guess you're looking for a demo). The Roman number system was useless, not easy to do arithmetic in. The Arabs are credited with the decimal radix but there is evidence of a duodecimal radix in other societies . Hindus certainly had a large part to play in the concept of zero as a placeholder. So quite wherever it came from it certainly is not the Greco-Roman-Western tradition.

    My actual point was that the West has risen over the past 500 years & has at the least a certain physical & technological supremacy. I contend that much of this is due to more openness , transparency & willingness to challenge all ideas. In the National Security arena much is classified & in wartime people are always urged to show unquestioning unity. I'd question as to the huge extra value of classified information as:
    Most things are public domain
    US & Israel are physically dominant, they can afford to lose secrecy.

    So lets take the side of the neocon wingnuts. Let's pretend that Israel was good & fought a just "war" etc. Give them all that... how come they never discuss tactics openly in advance ? How come they so rarely disagree ? Is this one of the big reasons why they've been "losing" so much recently ? Accepting the neocon premise as given - are Bush , Olmerht et al actually competent to discharge it ? My take is that, leaving aside the principled objections to their present strategies , the actual detail behind the strategy doesn't make sense & the strategies do not have workable operational plans associated with them.

    cYp
    "Yawn , am I alive yet ?"

  10. #10
    Politics.ie Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Drexciya
    Posts
    781

    Re: "Defeated" Israel negotiates with Lebanon

    Quote Originally Posted by cyberianpan
    My actual point was that the West has risen over the past 500 years & has at the least a certain physical & technological supremacy. I contend that much of this is due to more openness , transparency & willingness to challenge all ideas. In the National Security arena much is classified & in wartime people are always urged to show unquestioning unity. I'd question as to the huge extra value of classified information as:
    Most things are public domain
    US & Israel are physically dominant, they can afford to lose secrecy.

    So lets take the side of the neocon wingnuts. Let's pretend that Israel was good & fought a just "war" etc. Give them all that... how come they never discuss tactics openly in advance ? How come they so rarely disagree ? Is this one of the big reasons why they've been "losing" so much recently ? Accepting the neocon premise as given - are Bush , Olmerht et al actually competent to discharge it ? My take is that, leaving aside the principled objections to their present strategies , the actual detail behind the strategy doesn't make sense & the strategies do not have workable operational plans associated with them.

    cYp
    Do the benefits of an 'open source' military outweigh the disadvantages of allowing the enemy a great deal of information about you?

    I don't know, but its an interesting idea.

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 4
    Last Post: 12th January 2009, 11:27 PM
  2. Replies: 72
    Last Post: 7th January 2009, 10:50 AM
  3. Israel threatens "Holocaust" against Palestinians
    By FutureTaoiseach in forum Foreign Affairs
    Replies: 574
    Last Post: 19th March 2008, 02:45 PM
  4. McAleese "devastated" by Lebanon crisis
    By rover in forum Foreign Affairs
    Replies: 36
    Last Post: 20th July 2006, 10:04 AM