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  1. #11
    Darth Brooks Darth Brooks is offline

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    Works for me .

    Quote Originally Posted by L'Chaim View Post
    It's Israeli owned land that was bought and paid for. Palestinians have no claim to it.
    Lets pretend that your ridiculous claims are true and that many of the Illegal settlements are built on land that can be shown to have been purchased by Israeli citizens in a legal manner. Heh heh...

    That still would not mean that they have a right to obstruct the law and order of the state in which the land had been purchased. Owning apartments in Spain does not provide the right to overthrow the existing land ownership or land access rights of the Spaniards around you.
    You have not read what was posted earlier in the B'tselem report in which it was clarified that whilst only 3% of the Land was under the actual illegally built settlements - 40% of the land in the West Bank is effectively annexed to serve these settlements.

    Furthermore, if or when all the land is returned to the Palestinians the illegal settlers will come under the rule of the Palestinian Government.They would have no right to try to subvert the state and those who did try, would be expelled to their own state in Israel.
    So I think its possible that the Two State solution could work on the basis of your untrue claim that the settlers legally own the land upon which the illegal settlements are built and should be allowed to stay there.

    I think that many settlers would gladly take money to leave at that stage, however.
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  2. #12
    Nodin Nodin is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by L'Chaim View Post
    You'll find (,,,,)to it.
    Total sh[SIZE="2"]i[/SIZE]te which has been gone over before. The fact is that the Israeli annexation of Arab East Jerusalem is not internationally recognised, on maps, by Governments or in law.

    Tell me this - if its such a cut and dried case, why isn't it recognised?
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  3. #13
    L'Chaim L'Chaim is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Brooks View Post
    Lets pretend that your ridiculous claims are true and that many of the Illegal settlements are built on land that can be shown to have been purchased by Israeli citizens in a legal manner. Heh heh...

    That still would not mean that they have a right to obstruct the law and order of the state in which the land had been purchased. Owning apartments in Spain does not provide the right to overthrow the existing land ownership or land access rights of the Spaniards around you.
    You have not read what was posted earlier in the B'tselem report in which it was clarified that whilst only 3% of the Land was under the actual illegally built settlements - 40% of the land in the West Bank is effectively annexed to serve these settlements.

    Furthermore, if or when all the land is returned to the Palestinians the illegal settlers will come under the rule of the Palestinian Government.They would have no right to try to subvert the state and those who did try, would be expelled to their own state in Israel.
    So I think its possible that the Two State solution could work on the basis of your untrue claim that the settlers legally own the land upon which the illegal settlements are built and should be allowed to stay there.

    I think that many settlers would gladly take money to leave at that stage, however.
    And the state from who the land had been purchased is who/what? Your comparison with buying land in Spain is moot. When Jews bought the land it was controlled by israel. Before 67 the land was illegally occupied by Jordan. Before that it was the British mandate (which actively encouraged Jews to settle on the land) and before that it was the Ottomans. So which state are you talking about when you say "...does not mean they (Jews) have the right to obstruct the law and order of the state in which the land had been purchased"? In 1971 when the land was purchased Jordan were claiming it. They since dropped that claim
    Last edited by L'Chaim; 1st July 2009 at 08:58 PM.
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  4. #14
    L'Chaim L'Chaim is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nodin View Post
    Total sh[SIZE="2"]i[/SIZE]te which has been gone over before. The fact is that the Israeli annexation of Arab East Jerusalem is not internationally recognised, on maps, by Governments or in law.

    Tell me this - if its such a cut and dried case, why isn't it recognised?
    And what is it recognized as? Before israel had it it was occupied by Jordan and that wasn't internationally recognized. Before that it was the British mandate. Before that it was the Ottomans. The Palestinians want it as their capital, but they don't have a state. Jordan dropped its claim to it. The British washed their hands of it. The Arabs rejected the UN plans for it. So apart from 'anyone but the Jews'?????????
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  5. #15
    Nodin Nodin is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by L'Chaim View Post
    And what is it recognized as? Before israel had it it was occupied by Jordan and that wasn't internationally recognized. Before that it was the British mandate. Before that it was the Ottomans. The Palestinians want it as their capital, but they don't have a state. Jordan dropped its claim to it. The British washed their hands of it. The Arabs rejected the UN plans for it. So apart from 'anyone but the Jews'?????????
    Jordan ceded all claims to it and the West Bank to the Palestinians (presumably in the hope they'd start to move there in the event of a Palestinian state).
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  6. #16
    Darth Brooks Darth Brooks is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by L'Chaim View Post
    When Jews bought the land it was controlled by israel.

    I didn't know that it was just Jews you were talking about. One fifth of Israeli citizens are not Jewish. I'm presuming here that its just as legitimate for a Palestinian citizen of Israel to purchase land in the OPT as it is a Jewish citizen, in your opinion. So I'll continue here with my belief that you are arguing this point on a non-desciminatory basis.

    Citizens of Israel who find themselves in the Palestinian state after the realisation of Palestinian Statehood will be subject to the laws of that jurisdiction. So to avoid confusing this described demographic with Israelis who may be left East of the 67 line on P-day, under agreements that allow for mutual and minor alterations of that particular border, and that hence end up in the future Israel proper, lets take for example the population of Israeli citizens living on lands that will never be ceded to Israel on such a basis.

    The Jordan Valley, Hebron, Bethlehem, Jerusalem ; people who end up not taking Israeli government compensation to move from these future Palestinian areas will come under Palestinian legislative control. These people will be expelled or imprisoned for subversion against the state within which they abide upon the day of said transgression. This much is to your approval, I presume, regardless of what the State of Jordan did in 1948.
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  7. #17
    L'Chaim L'Chaim is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nodin View Post
    Jordan ceded all claims to it and the West Bank to the Palestinians (presumably in the hope they'd start to move there in the event of a Palestinian state).
    But the Jordanian claim to it was illegal and not recognized. If you're claiming that Israel doesn't have rights to this land because it's "not internationally recognized on maps, by governments, in law", then you can hardly hold up Jordan's claim to it or deciding who should get it, to be acceptable.
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  8. #18
    L'Chaim L'Chaim is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Brooks View Post
    I didn't know that it was just Jews you were talking about. One fifth of Israeli citizens are not Jewish. I'm presuming here that its just as legitimate for a Palestinian citizen of Israel to purchase land in the OPT as it is a Jewish citizen, in your opinion. So I'll continue here with my belief that you are arguing this point on a non-desciminatory basis.

    Citizens of Israel who find themselves in the Palestinian state after the realisation of Palestinian Statehood will be subject to the laws of that jurisdiction. So to avoid confusing this described demographic with Israelis who may be left East of the 67 line on P-day, under agreements that allow for mutual and minor alterations of that particular border, and that hence end up in the future Israel proper, lets take for example the population of Israeli citizens living on lands that will never be ceded to Israel on such a basis.

    The Jordan Valley, Hebron, Bethlehem, Jerusalem ; people who end up not taking Israeli government compensation to move from these future Palestinian areas will come under Palestinian legislative control. These people will be expelled or imprisoned for subversion against the state within which they abide upon the day of said transgression. This much is to your approval, I presume, regardless of what the State of Jordan did in 1948.
    You do realise that most of Israeli land is state owned land and nobody can buy it? Privately owned land can be bought and sold by whoever wants. Arabs can of course buy land in the West bank if the land owners want to sell it to them. But Jews can also buy it if the landowners of that West bank land want to sell it to them.

    If the Palestinian state to be is anything like Gaza, when israel pulled out, then there won't be any Jews living there at all. That's what the Palestinians in Gaza wanted - a Jew free zone. However in the West bank and East Jerusalem there are over 500,000 Israelis living there, mostly on on Israeli owned land. Don't be so quick to think that this land is just going to be handed over to the palestinians for nothing after it was bought and paid for. And places like the Jordan valley is very sparsely populated by Palestinians, with the exception of Jerico, which is already under full Palestinian control. So don't be so quick to assume that this so called Palestinian state is going to include lands that over 500,000 Israelis live on. All that has to be negotiated in any talks about an independent Palestinian state. And there will be negotiations on land swap. There has to be because otherwise there is no way of joining up Gaza and the West bank. There will be negotiations and compromise on both sides. Don't assume what areas are going to come under Palestinian legislative control. Both sides haven't even gotten around to discussing that yet.
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  9. #19
    Darth Brooks Darth Brooks is offline

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    Wrong again

    Quote Originally Posted by L'Chaim View Post
    If the Palestinian state to be is anything like Gaza, when israel pulled out, then there won't be any Jews living there at all. That's what the Palestinians in Gaza wanted - a Jew free zone. .
    You have no proof of that assertion whatsoever. It was the Government of Israel which demanded and enforced the Gaza Strip as a Jew Free Zone.
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  10. #20
    Nodin Nodin is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by L'Chaim View Post
    But the Jordanian claim to it was illegal and not recognized. If you're claiming that Israel doesn't have rights to this land because it's "not internationally recognized on maps, by governments, in law", then you can hardly hold up Jordan's claim to it or deciding who should get it, to be acceptable.
    If Jordan drops all claim to it, then its a matter between the Israelis and Palestinians......
    Quote Originally Posted by L'Chaim View Post
    However in the West bank and East Jerusalem there are over 500,000 Israelis living there, mostly on on Israeli owned land..
    Even using standards set by Israel, claims to ownership and legality are dubious....For instance -

    A new study conducted by left-wing group Peace Now has found that approximately 40 percent of settlements, including long-standing communities, are built on private Palestinian land and not on state-owned land.

    In a press conference held in Jerusalem on Tuesday, the group presented a report asserting that out of a total area of 157,000 dunams used by West Bank settlements and industrial zones, 61,000 dunams (approximately 38 percent) are privately owned by Palestinians.
    Study: 40 percent of settlements were built on Palestinian land - Haaretz - Israel News
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